The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. Questions to the First Minister is the first item, and I've received notification, under Standing Order 12.58, that the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales will answer questions today on behalf of the First Minister. The first question, Tom Giffard.

The Economy of South Wales West

Tom Giffard AS: 1. What steps is the First Minister taking to improve the economy of South Wales West? OQ59794

Lesley Griffiths AC: Our economic mission sets out clearly the values and priorities that shape the decisions we are taking in supporting our economy across the whole of Wales. An excellent example in South Wales West is the Swansea bay city deal—a £1.2 billion investment with the aim of creating 9,000 jobs.

Tom Giffard AS: Can I thank the Trefnydd for her answer? Obviously, this has been a very difficult week for the economy in South Wales West, particularly in Bridgend, where we saw the potential loss of 540 jobs at the Zimmer Biomet plant in the town. And, obviously, it's been a difficult couple of years after having lost the Ford plant not long ago as well. I was pleased to see the economy Minister, the Member for Ogmore and others express their anger and frustration, I think, at the way Zimmer Biomethandled those potential job losses, and, I think, if you are looking for an example of how not to handle something like this, the events of the last week would probably be a good place to start.But the work goes on, and we all need to support,now the town to get through this, and the workers specifically. So, can I ask, Trefnydd, what steps the Welsh Government is now taking to support the town, to support the workers, and to improve the local economy, going forward?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, this is extremely disappointing news and is deeply concerning for the staff at Zimmer Biomet, and, of course, the wider community. I should be very clear that Welsh Government had no prior notice from the company of this decision. The only way we knew about it was when we'd heard rumours, and the Minister for Economy's officials reached out in response to those rumours. The Welsh Government is now engaging with the company to understand the rationale for the decision they've made and to explore any options that exist to protect jobs.

Sioned Williams MS: It is extremely worrying news, of course, and the thing that you've suggested there, in your answer to Tom Giffard, was about the shock, and the leader of Bridgend council, Huw David, also echoed that shock. It's quite surprising to me, as you say, knowing that this is a firm that had Government support in the past, that there wasn't more keeping in touch, perhaps, with this company. So, I'm just wondering if you could outline as well, as you have done with the support for the workers, and the engagement that, hopefully, is happening with the Government, with the unions, and also those more broadly in the town area, and the county-wide area, what exactly will the Government consider putting in place to make sure that something like this doesn't happen again, that that intelligence is being received and that lines of dialogue are open.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I think it is down to the businesses to bring their concerns to Welsh Government, whether they've had Welsh Government funding or not. I do think it is down to that, but I know the Government and elected representatives—Sarah Murphy, the Member of the Senedd for Bridgend—have worked very closely with the company and visited many, many times and had no idea of this decision. So, I think the priority now is to support the staff affected by the announcement last week. The Welsh Government will be working closely with Bridgend County Borough Council, with the Department for Work and Pensions and, of course, with the trade unions at the factory to ensure employees receive the support that they do need.

Sarah Murphy AS: As the Member of the Senedd for Bridgend, I also want to raise the potential job losses at Zimmer Biomet in my constituency, and I also expressed my shock and extreme disappointment that there were no prior discussions to this announcement being made. I got a phone call, I believe, at about 10 o'clock on Thursday morning, whilst they had already begun to tell the staff, and they had also not spoken, as far as I am aware, to the Welsh Government, or to my own trade union, Unite Wales, who is in there now supporting them.These are 540 loyal and skilled staff, some of whom have been there for decades. And I just want to reiterate as well that I and Huw Irranca-Davies, the MS for Ogmore, have visited multiple times over the last few years, and at no point were we given any indication; in fact, the company loved taking us around the manufacturing floor whilst lobbying us to help them do their consultancy work in our health boards. So, I would just like to ask the Welsh Government how we can ensure now, over the next six months, that this is a proper consultation and not just a holding situation for our workers, whilst they set up their new site in Galway in Ireland? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I think you just reiterated the points that I made to Sioned Williams, that I do think it is important that that conversation is two way—that if businesses are concerned about any aspects of their production, they give us a heads-up, because then you can do so much more to assist, to be preventative rather than have to then be reactive. I know you've met with the Minister for Economy around this, and we will see what we can do to help them. I think the point you make around the six-month consultation is very important. It's got to be meaningful in order, for the staff—as you say, very skilled staff, very loyal staff; some of them have been there many, many years—that we help them and support them in the way that they need.

Renewables Industry

Samuel Kurtz MS: 2. How is the Welsh Government supporting skills development within the renewables industry? OQ59792

Lesley Griffiths AC: The net-zero skills action plan sets out our aims to grow and equip our workforce with the right skills to support our just transition to net zero. We are working closely with the renewables industry to identify the skills needed to support the sector to grow its future workforce.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Trefnydd, you'll be aware of the exciting opportunities that the floating offshore wind sector and wider Celtic free port presents to economically transform areas of my constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, and south-west Wales. If we are to maximise the impact of exciting new technologies and opportunities, we need a workforce who are primed with the skills necessary to capitalise upon them. The Offshore Wind Industry Council has estimated that, across the UK, the industry will need to employ over 100,000 people by 2030 to meet targets, with RenewableUK Cymru stating that,
'We need to take a broad, holistic approach across all career and employment opportunities related to renewables, to match the pipeline of our ambition.'
The Darwin Centre in Pembrokeshire are working closely with Floventis Energy to build STEM skills at a primary school age. But given the scale of our ambition in the renewables sector, what action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that these ambitions are met? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I absolutely agree with you—there are very exciting prospects not just in Pembrokeshire, but all around the coast of Wales, and floating offshore wind, I think, has the potential to contribute significantly to Wales's and, indeed, to Great Britain's future net zero energy system. I think it's a fantastic opportunity also to bring much-needed social and economic benefits for our coastal communities. We are working with the industry. We are working with the Crown Estate. I know the Minister for Climate Change and the First Minister recently met with the Crown Estate, and, of course, with the UK Government, to really make this a reality.
You referred to the Darwin Centre; I know the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language has met with them. I think that's very exciting work that they're doing with primary school children; I think it's very important to get that interest at a very young age, going forward. But having a skilled and diverse workforce, I think, in this area is very important. Of course, there are jobs that we don't even know about now, so keeping abreast of those skills is really important. When we had the north Wales Cabinet, when we met with the metro mayor of Liverpool and the mayor of Manchester, we went to the Port of Mostynand we were talking about renewable energies there. It was interesting to hear of the skills issues that they had that we too are facing here. But, as you say, massive opportunities, and what we really need to do is respond to the growing demand from different sectors, such as you refer to, for more people to have skills in the renewables sectors.

Vikki Howells AC: Trefnydd, when Vattenfall developed the Pen y Cymoedd windfarm above Rhigos in my constituency, they created a high number of apprenticeship opportunities and invested in developing a range of transferrable skills. In contrast with their plans for the Twyn Hywel energy park at Cilfynydd, Bute Energy have informed me in some initial meetings that they would wish to fund apprenticeship opportunities on the site from their community benefit fund. Would you agree with me, Minister, that apprenticeship opportunities within the renewable energy sector should be supported by employers and not from moneys that could seem to be siphoned off from community funds?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Absolutely. Every effort should be made to maximise benefits for the people of Wales, and certainly for local people, when we're developing energy projects in Wales. I remember visiting Pen y Cymoedd when I was the energy Minister, and talking to people from the local community about the benefits that the project had brought forward. We really want to maximise the potential for local ownership of projects so that we really retain that value here in Wales. We have published guidance on how local ownership should be achieved, and we would expect projects to provide significant benefit to the community through a community benefit fund and through direct investment in the supply chain, and that includes, obviously, the workforce as well. We really don't want the community benefit funds to represent the ceiling of benefit for communities. So, I really would encourage all developers to work in partnership with local communities so that opportunities can be identified where investment can support and add value for the people living locally.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T.Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Leader of the house, last week, the Agriculture (Wales) Bill was passed, and I commend you for that. There are areas that we disagree on in it, but bringing a piece of major legislation through is a big ask and it's now on the statute book; it is there, available for you to use and the Government to use to enhance the agricultural industry here in Wales. One thing that's really important is that we grow more food—I would hope that you would agree with this—here in Wales. Thirty years ago, of the produce we could grow, we used to be 75 per cent self-sufficient. We are now under 60 per cent self-sufficient with the food that we can produce within this country. What measures will you be taking to make sure that we can enhance local food production and make sure that we protect land, so that it is available—especially good-quality land—for agricultural production?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I thank you and your group's support for the Agriculture (Wales) Bill. It is a landmark piece of legislation and I was very pleased that it was passed unanimously, and that's because of the work that we did collaboratively, I think, going forward. And I absolutely appreciate that there were some areas that you wouldn't agree with, and, obviously, amendments came forward, et cetera, but I'm very happy to continue to work with everybody in the Chamber, because this is just the first part, really, as the First Minister said last week in his legislative programme statement, on how we go forward with agricultural legislation.
You do make a very important point: the more food we can grow here in Wales and become more self-sufficient—. I don't think we'll ever be 100 per cent self-sufficient, certainly not in my lifetime, but I don't think that's a reason not to want to grow more food and produce more meat, et cetera, going forward. You will be aware that the focus of the Wales agriculture Bill, all the way through, right from when we first went out to consultation back in 2018, was to make sure that active farmers were rewarded, and that is the focus that we will have, going forward. Obviously, sustainable food production is going to be a very important part of the sustainable farming scheme. I'll be bringing forward an oral statement next Tuesday.

Andrew RT Davies AC: The really important thing is that the Government policy has a target to hit, and, as I've said, 75 per cent of the food that we could produce used to be produced in this country. We are now under 60 per cent. Will the Government adopt a target so that—. I appreciate that's difficult for Government sometimes, because, obviously, it's a challenging benchmark to be held against, but, unless you have that reinstatement, back to where we were 30 years ago, and the policy levers used to do that, there is a real danger that, in 10 years' time, we're not 60 per cent, we're 50 or 40 per cent. So, could I press you to try and understand if the Government will adopt a target for self-sufficiency in the food that we can produce so that the industry, the policy makers and, importantly, you, as Minister, or whoever comes after you, have got a a target to aim for and we can achieve that 75 per cent goal that, historically, Welsh agriculture and UK agriculture have achieved?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I think many people will have heard me say that I'm a Minister that likes targets, and I like targets for the reason that you have got something to measure, but they have to be pragmatic and they've got to be realistic. And I remember, when I was energy Minister, coming forward with some targets on how much renewable energy we should have here in Wales, and it's quite hard to scientifically get there. So, I think, you need to look at where you want to be, how you need to get there, and then take it from there. So, I wouldn't rule it out, but I'm not going to decide on such a policy here in the Chamber today. But what I do think is that those policies work for the sector. The agricultural sector—and I don't need to tell you this—is going through a really challenging time. So, it's very important that the policies we do bring forward—. Because, obviously, we've been unravelling decades of European legislation, and it was the first opportunity we had to have a Wales-specific Bill, and I've said all along that Bill—when it becomes an Act— and that legislation has to work, and the scheme is the same, and, obviously, the Bill is the vehicle for the sustainable farming scheme. That scheme will have to work for every farmer in every part of Wales on every type of farm, and that very much includes tenant farmers, because I know there's been some concern around tenant farmers. So, it's about making sure that everything is pertinent for the sector.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I hear what you say about targets, Minister, and I can appreciate Ministers are very careful in the targets that they set, for obvious reasons, but one target that you have set for the Government, in the sustainable farming scheme, is the 10 per cent of woodland cover. Now, we can argue whether 10 per cent is the right figure—should it be 15 per cent, should it be 5 per cent, should it even exist? But you have identified 10 per cent as woodland cover. I have yet to find someone who can understand why 10 per cent was the figure that was settled on. So, could you elaborate today on how the Government settled on that 10 per cent figure, and what is the logic of maintaining that 10 per cent figure, when you bring forward the more substantive statement on the sustainable farming scheme that, as I understand it, is coming next week? And, as farmers go forward to plan their business enterprises, they will have to consider this and the impact of that 10 per cent on their businesses.

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, the 10 per cent—I've challenged whether 10 per cent is enough, and I suppose you could say 10 per cent would be the minimum; if somebody wants to do 20 per cent or 30 per cent, obviously, that's up to them, and they will be rewarded for that within the sustainable farming scheme.
The 10 per cent came about out of consultations, but it also came from the UK Climate Change Committee. We know we need to plant more trees; we haven't planted enough trees over the last few years and, certainly, decade, and we need to plant more trees. Farmers are in the ideal position to help us do that. Some people will not be able to plant trees, so I've had many conversations with farmers on Anglesey, I've had conversations with farmers in Pembrokeshire, who feel they won't be able to. Now, we don't want them to plant the wrong tree in the wrong place—that's really important. So, if they can't plant 10 per cent trees, or if they haven't got 10 per cent to retain, then they won't be punished for that. We will have to find ways of working around that, to make sure if they want to be part of the scheme—and I want to be very clear: we want as many farmers as possible to be part of that scheme—that they're not ruled out because they can't do that. So, these are conversations that will continue.
I'm bringing forward an oral statement a week today. However, we have said there will be a final consultation this year, probably, I would say, late autumn of this year. We're going to have a huge focus on the sustainable farming scheme in our summer shows. For anybody who comes to the Welsh Government pavilion during the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society show, there absolutely will be the focus on it. So, we do want to continue to hear, but that was how we got to the 10 per cent.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I think it's becoming pretty clear, even in the few Wales-focused sessions we've had in the UK COVID inquiry, that Welsh Government wasn't prepared for the pandemic. Task and finish groups took on tasks but didn't finish them; the possibility of a non-flu pandemic was discounted too soon; the Chief Medical Officer for Wales's office was so under-resourced, it was drowning—couldn't even manage incoming e-mails. And, whilst the Trefnydd knows my thoughts on Brexit and, of course, it hampered the Government's work in many, many ways, how on earth does Brexit explain why important documents hadn't been updated since 2011?
Now, what we're seeing—and I fear it'll become apparent again when we hear the First Minister speak at the inquiry this afternoon—is that there are many, many questions to ask about why we were so unprepared. And, through the UK inquiry, we're only able to scratch the surface. Surely Welsh Government can see now what I and the COVID-bereaved campaigners have long called for, which is that we need that full Welsh COVID inquiry, if we're to have any chance of getting at the real truth and learning lessons.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, currently, as we are having this discussion today, senior civil servants are in London giving evidence, the First Minister and the Minister for Economy, who, of course, was the Minister for Health and Social Services, are also oral witnesses this afternoon. I think it really would be ridiculous for me to answer questions on the COVID inquiry at the same time as the First Minister is giving evidence. We don't, and we will not be providing a commentary about evidence heard at the inquiry. The inquiry is absolutely the right place for these questions to be answered, not First Minister's questions.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'm grateful for the response. The truth is, of course, that we're getting a glimpse through the sessions that we're hearing at the UK inquiry of the fact that things went wrong, but we need to understand what is the depth of that lack of preparedness; we just didn't have the resilience in terms of pandemic preparedness. But let me broaden out, on the seventy-fifth anniversary of the NHS, and talk about my fear that the health service as a whole is lacking the resilience that it needs.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: This morning I was at the national service, along with a number of fellow Members, to mark the seventy-fifth anniversary of the NHS, and I want to use this opportunity, as was done this morning, to give heartfelt thanks to everyone who's contributed to the work of the NHS over decades—our clinical staff, care staff, and the thousands upon thousands who make a contribution behind the scenes.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We appreciate and we value every single person that makes, and that has made, the NHS what it is: an organisation to be treasured for the fact that it treats us all equally. But the staff that we praise and thank today are the ones who feel that lack of resilience the most. Dozens of health organisations are in the Senedd today calling for action to build into the workforce the resilience it needs. Does the Minister agree with me, as a former health Minister herself, that building resilience into the workforce is at the heart of building a resilient NHS, and that we're falling way short of giving the workforce the support that they need currently?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I absolutely agree with the leader of Plaid Cymru in saying a heartfelt 'thank you' to all the people who've worked and continue to work for the NHS, and I'm sure it was a very thoughtful service this morning; I'm sorry I was unable to attend. But I do think NHS 75 is a massive opportunity to celebrate the seventy-fifth anniversary of a publicly funded NHS, available to all and free at the point of need, and that it continues to be so.
Obviously, these have been incredibly challenging times for our NHS, and we have done all we can to try and support our NHS staff. I wish our budget was sufficient to be able to give them the pay rise that we all believe that they deserve, but, sadly, that is not the case. Of course, the NHS doesn't stand still; it's always evolving, it's always responding to advances in medicines and new treatments, meaning people live a lot longer. We know that the pandemic has had a lasting effect, not just on us, but of course on the staff. What the staff went through during that pandemic, sometimes we can only imagine, and they were absolutely fantastic and the staff provided incredible care. Their resilience must have been challenged in a way, again, that we can only imagine.
We are doing all we can to support; the Minister for Health and Social Services has discussions all the time. We're looking at recruitment, we're looking at the new medical school in Bangor to try and encourage more doctors to come and train in north Wales and stay in north Wales, because we know, don't we, that where people train, they often stay. But that resilience is something that I know was deeply challenged, and we want to continue to work with our staff to make sure they understand how valued they are.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The Minister lists a number of initiatives, and, of course, we need new initiatives. We all want the NHS to flourish, of course, and recently I and colleagues published a number of proposals, looking at how to strengthen the workforce through addressing the issue of pay, addressing the issue of the millions of pounds being lost in profits to private agencies. We looked at the need for that revolution in attitudes towards preventative healthcare, the need for innovation on the alignment between health and social care. Now, we certainly haven't got all the answers here—we'd never claim to have them—but whilst the Minister refers to budgets, it's about new ideas and a willingness to change direction. Does the Minister agree with me that we need a fundamental change of direction when it comes to the NHS, when you look at the current state of services? And does she share my fear that without that preparedness to admit where things are wrong and to change direction, that we face a situation where this NHS that we treasure now risks not being here as we know it, 75 years from now?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. So, I've seen the five-point plan that Plaid Cymru have come forward with, and I have to say that I don't think we disagree with anything that you've put forward. But I'd like to see some detail behind that, and I'm sure the Minister for Health and Social Services would. Obviously, health isn't part of the co-operation agreement, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't be interested to hear your views and to see what we could do. I think, looking at the five-point plan, we are doing all of that already. Certainly, health and social care interaction, we do need to take a much more sustainable approach, I think, to ensure that we have that seamless move from healthcare to social care that you point out.
I think, a fundamental change of direction—. I think what we need to look at is what I call 'the real health service'; so, you look at education, you look at housing, and you look at jobs, as that all determines our health, doesn't it, if you think about it, from a very young age. I also think we need to do more as individuals. We know that smoking is really bad for us, we know obesity is really bad for us—we all need to do far more. So, I'm not sure about the fundamental change of direction, but I think there are steps—. We need to look at our own personal health, as well as looking at the health service, because, as you say, 75 years is a long time, and what was innovative 75 years ago probably wouldn’t be viewed as innovative now, and it’s really important that the health service keeps up with that innovation. We know we need to put more funding into public services, but I’m afraid that 13 years of Tory austerity have now, I think, caught up with us, as well as all the other challenges that we have faced and continue to face.

Prescription Medication

Rhys ab Owen AS: 3. What discussions has the First Minister had with Government colleagues and other partners regarding the overuse of prescription medication? OQ59809

Lesley Griffiths AC: Ensuring that the best care possible is available for the people of Wales is a Welsh Government priority. The safe and effective use of medicines and their alternatives is a vital enabler for the best possible patient outcomes and achieving best value for NHS Wales.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr, Trefnydd. At the end of June a BBC Panorama programme investigated antidepressants. The programme highlighted the relative lack of evidence regarding efficiency of antidepressants, and that people are not properly warned about side effects and withdrawal problems. Concerns were also raised that referrals to talking therapies have fallen significantly since COVID. I couldn’t find the Welsh figures, but in the UK around one in seven take antidepressants. It wouldn’t surprise me if the figure perhaps is higher here in Wales. Whilst many people benefit from taking antidepressants, what alternative can we offer in Wales to assist people who want to stop taking prescribed medication and look at alternatives? Diolch yn fawr.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I am not aware of the programme that you referred to, but I certainly have seen the figure that you mentioned of one in seven in the UK taking antidepressants. One has to assume that GPs have looked into alternative therapies, for instance, when a patient comes before them before they prescribe an antidepressant, but we have to take that as a clinical decision by the GP. I think what is really important is that GPs' performance is measured, and we’ve got key areas such as national prescribing indicators. They’re evidence based and enable health boards or primary care clusters or GP practices, for instance, to compare their current prescribing practice with that of their peers, so that they can take action to improve prescribing.

I'm not used to such short answers in this session. [Laughter.] You caught me there slightly, Minister. Thank you. Russell George.

Russell George AC: I thought I'd give you a hint, Presiding Officer. Thank you. [Laughter.] Thank you for your answer, Minister. I suspect that there are many prescribed medications that go unused, often going out of date, sat in cupboards, and often they're thrown away, sometimes even used inappropriately if they have gone out of date. I wonder, Minister, what work has the Government done to understand the level of prescribed medications that are not used, and what could be done to reduce waste of unused medication.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think you raise a very important point about reducing medicine waste and minimising medicine waste is a very important element of both the decarbonisation agenda and, of course, a prudent healthcare approach in Wales. It’s the Welsh Government’s goal to secure a much more efficient and effective NHS. We have undertaken a number of initiatives over the last few years to reduce medicine waste, such as the introduction of targeted medicine use reviews within a GP practice, and of course a discharge medicines review service within our community pharmacies. I’ve seen some of those in practice myself within my own constituency.
We do expect health boards and health professionals to prioritise activity to reduce waste through responsible prescribing, dispensing and ensuring patients understand their medicines and how to use them appropriately. Welsh Government have awarded funding to the Bevan Commission to support their 'Let's Not Waste' programme. That’s designed to provide a focused and concerted effort to achieve a demonstrable reduction in waste in health and care, and in addition we are working with the Welsh Medicines Resource Centre on a medicines optimisation catalyst programme that will incorporate behavioural insights to support prescribers and patients in building a better relationship with medicines, promoting de-prescribing and addressing poor adherence.

Mike Hedges AC: I want to raise the potential danger of polypharmacy. I, like others in this room, will know people who take eight or 10 different tablets a day, or have been prescribed eight or 10 different tablets a day and decide which ones to take. While the safety of each has been tested, how they work in combination has not. Does the Minister agree that we need to use artificial intelligence to ensure that the combination of active ingredients in medication is not harmful?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Another important area in polypharmacy, and medicines have an enormous positive impact on the lives of so many people. For many people, it is necessary for them to take a number of medicines, as you referred to, to manage and treat their medical conditions. But polypharmacy is a complex and growing issue, which in some cases can be problematic. It's a term that is used to describe a situation where people are taking a number of medicines, and they could therefore be at greater risk of potential harm from side effects or, indeed, interactions between their medicines.
Of course, we know that more people than ever are taking more medicines than ever, and this is a trend that is likely to continue, if we look at the results of advancements in diagnostics and treatments of diseases, resulting in people living longer with multiple conditions. But addressing problematic polypharmacy will have benefits for individuals, health professionals and the healthcare system, and we've invested in a number of initiatives that do reduce polypharmacy—for example, through quality improvement schemes and national prescribing indicators, focusing on reducing less-safe prescribing by GPs.

Welsh Manufacturing

Jack Sargeant AC: 4. How is the Welsh Government supporting innovation in Welsh manufacturing? OQ59785

Lesley Griffiths AC: We support innovation in Welsh manufacturing through specialist advisory support, grant funding and collaborative opportunities through assets such as the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre. We recently announced £30 million to support innovation in Welsh organisations, which include manufacturing businesses, to develop new products and processes.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm very grateful to the Trefnydd for that answer. A few weeks ago now I had the opportunity to visit Electroimpact in my constituency, and, as a trained engineer, I was very excited about the technology that was being developed on site in Deeside. What was also clear, Minister, was just how important apprenticeships are to Electroimpact's successes and, no doubt, its future successes. I wonder if the Minister will join me, in her capacity as Minister for North Wales, to visit the site, perhaps alongside the Minister for Economy, to further discuss what the Welsh Government can do to support Welsh manufacturing and businesses innovating in that space, like Electroimpact in my constituency.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much, and I'd be very happy to do that. Perhaps we can do it over the summer recess. I'm very aware of the important role that the company does play in the Airbus supply chain. We both have many companies in our constituencies that play a part there, and, really, they do cutting-edge work with automation and with robotics. The economy Minister and myself are only too aware of the extraordinary innovation throughout the sector. The Minister for Economy visited the Paris air show previously, and we're very happy—. He would probably be very happy to come along as well and see the Advanced Technology Research Centre plans also for your constituency.

Paul Davies AC: Minister, the leader of the opposition asked you some questions earlier regarding the Welsh Government's food policy. Now, I listened very carefully to your answers, and I appreciate that the Welsh Government's manufacturing strategy tells us that food is a priority economic sector in Wales. But approximately half of public sector spend on food takes place outside of Wales. In fact, the strategy says that major wholesalers to the public sector are supplying less than 10 per cent of produce sourced from within Wales. In light of the fact that the Welsh Government voted against the Member for Monmouth's food Bill, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to localise public sector spend on food, as highlighted in the Welsh Government's manufacturing strategy? And what is the Welsh Government also doing to support innovation in the food sector?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, the reason we voted against Peter Fox's food Bill was because we believed that the majority of things that were being brought forward that we agreed with were already being done and didn't need legislation. There were some things that I think we can take forward in the community food strategy, which you know is a programme for government commitment that we are working on with Plaid Cymru as part of the co-operation agreement. So, I think that's one area, in answer to your question—that we can bring it down to a local level with the community food strategy.
With regard to innovation, you will be aware of the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre, which is attached to Airbus in Jack Sergeant's constituency. As we speak, I think that there is a further seminar being held there today around innovation in the food and drink sector in Wales.

Question 5 [OQ59801] has been withdrawn. Question 6, Buffy Williams.

Flood Alleviation Response

Buffy Williams MS: 6. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's flood alleviation response in Pentre following storm Dennis? OQ59812

Lesley Griffiths AC: Since storm Dennis, the Welsh Government has made £14.6 million capital and revenue funding available to Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council to alleviate the risk of flooding, including in Pentre. The Welsh Government, Natural Resources Wales and RCT council continue to work closely to reduce flood risk and make improvements where needed.

Buffy Williams MS: Thank you. At the time of storm Dennis, it was clear, from the devastation caused to residents' homes, businesses and our coal tips, that we needed Welsh Government's support. The millions spent on upgrading culverts and drainage systems to date can't guarantee we won't see flooding in the future, but the sheer scale of works definitely provides peace of mind for local residents. So does seeing the activity on our mountainsides to put right our high-risk coal tips. There's more flood alleviation investment on the way, Rhondda wide, and I'd like to thank both RCT council and NRW for their combined drop-in session held in Canolfan Pentre last week. I know that the First Minister can't be with us today, but he recently visited Tylorstown coal tip, which is in one of its last stages. I'd like to ask the Trefnydd today if she could please provide an update following the FM's visit. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much, and I know, Buffy Williams, even before you were elected as an MS, you have been a long-standing campaigner for flood risk alleviation in your constituency. As you said, on 22 June, the First Minister saw firsthand the scale of the works ongoing at Tylorstown, which have been funded by the Welsh Government, and I commend the work of RCT in responding to the challenge posed by the landslide. I don't think we should underestimate the significance of the work that's been carried out there. Nearly 400,000 tonnes of debris will have been moved from the tip, 320,000 from the current phase, and then 60,000 tonnes removed from the river. I think you're right; RCT council have really stepped up to the plate and have done some fantastic work. I know the Minister for Climate Change works very closely with them.

Joel James MS: I'd like to thank Buffy for raising this important issue. Hindsight is, of course, a wonderful thing, and I'm sure that this area will now be more closely monitored by NRW, but this will bring little comfort to those in Pentre who were impacted by storm Dennis. I note the number of actions RCT council has taken to address flood risk management in Pentre and the surrounding areas following storm Dennis, in particular the upgrading of their culverted ordinary watercourse infrastructure, and that there's currently a consultation open, as Buffy alluded to, about the preferred options for Pentre flood alleviation scheme. However, I'm mindful that completion of this project is still several years away, and, sadly, residents living in the village may well be faced with increased household insurance premiums or have had their flood risk insurance removed from their cover as a result of the previous flooding. With this in mind, Trefnydd, what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the current risk of repeated flooding in Pentre similar to that seen after storm Dennis and what funds will be made available to residents if their property is flooded and they do not have the necessary flood risk insurance as part of their home insurance policy? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think it's really important to remember that the storms we saw in February 2020 were the worst we'd seen in Wales in 40 years. I was in my previous portfolio then. I visited the areas and saw the devastation. Over 3,000 properties were flooded, and, for those people, some of them, as you say, had been flooded more than once. It was incredibly devastating. The Welsh Government, NRW and local authorities worked very well together then and continue to work together so that we learnt lessons from what happened and we continue to reduce risk to our communities and make improvements where we need to.
House insurance is a very important point. If you've been flooded once, the chances are your premiums will go up a lot and you may not even be able to get insurance. Obviously, that's a matter that's not devolved, it's a reserved matter for the UK Government, and I know, as a Government, we've had a lot of conversations with the UK Government in relation to this. This year, we'll invest a record £75 million across Wales in our flood and coastal risk management. That's the highest spend in a single financial year to date, and that includes approximately £4.8 million for RCT for 28 schemes that, once complete, will protect almost 2,256 properties. I know Pentreis a priority for Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, and, again, since 2017, Welsh Government have provided the local authority with £177,000 so that they can develop an outline business case for a scheme to protect around 400 properties in the community.

Health Services in Blaenau Gwent

Alun Davies AC: 7. Will the First Minister make a statement on the future of health services in Blaenau Gwent? OQ59781

Lesley Griffiths AC: As we celebrate the seventy-fifth anniversary of our NHS and look towards the future of services in Wales, including Blaenau Gwent, we must protect the fundamental principles upon which our NHS was created, whilst understanding that we will all need to rise to the challenges as well as the opportunities that lie ahead.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you, Minister.
'Illness is neither an indulgence for which people have to pay, nor an offence for which they should be penalised'.
Bevan‘s words resonate down the decades. His vision is a rebuke to all those people who devalue the work of the national health service and who devalue the values upon which the health service was created. On Sunday, we marched from Charles Street past the offices of the medical aid society to Bedwellty Park to pay tribute to Aneurin Bevan, to pay tribute to his vision. The landmarks of Tredegar are the landmarks of Great Britain. When Aneurin Bevan said he was going to 'Tredegarise' Britain, what he meant was that his values, the values of the south Wales Valleys, the values of Labour, the values of the Tredegar Medical Aid Society, would transform the lives of people up and down this country. Seventy-five years later, those values remain true in this party, remain true in this Parliament, and remain true in this country.
Minister, when we look at today’s national health service, it’s unrecognisable from what Aneurin Bevan experienced as a child growing up in Tredegar. The surgeries of the medical aid society still stand, but a new primary care centre is being built on the site of the old cottage hospital. The Labour Party has transformed the health service once; it’s transforming the health service today. Minister, can you give an undertaking to this Parliament and to our people that so long as Labour are in charge of the health service in Wales it will never be privatised, the vision of Aneurin Bevan will always guide us in our work, and the values of Aneurin Bevan and the values of the Tredegar Medical Aid Society are the values with which we will take forward the national health service into this century and beyond that?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I absolutely agree with the Member, and it was interesting, I was reading about Bevan over the weekend, and it was talking about the NHS, at the time it was first established, facing unprecedented demand for services, but, of course, whilst that’s still the case, those services have very much changed and advanced over time, and what we now take for granted is obviously very much different to what was available for our founding generations. You’re quite right about the Tredegar health and well-being centre:that £19.5 million Tredegar health and well-being centre is going to house two existing GP practices working independently, and will bring a range of services for patients together in one place, and what better way to celebrate the seventy-fifth anniversary and to celebrate Bevan.

Natasha Asghar AS: I'd like to thank the Member for Pontcanna—oops, sorry, Blaenau Gwent—for his question regarding the future of the health service. Minister, last week, I met with several GPs from my region at the Save our Surgeries event here in the Senedd. They gave—[Interruption.]

I can't hear the Member. Please can we have some quiet? Everybody listened quietly to you, Alun Davies; perhaps you can now listen to another Member. Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, last week, I met with several GPs from the region of South East Wales in the event Save our Surgeries here in the Senedd. They gave an extremely open and frank look at some at the issues that they’re facing on a daily basis. My conversations with them came after the British Medical Association warned GP services in Wales will indeed collapse without urgent support. This is an extremely stark warning that should in fact worry each and every single person sitting in this Chamber today, as the BMA has issued four calls to the Welsh Government, all of which I fully support. They want to see a commitment of funding, investment in the workforce, a workforce strategy drawn up, and action taken to address staff well-being going forward. So, Minister, will your Government commit to implementing this rescue package for GPs and patients all across Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I’d like to ask you where you think we’ll get the money from, because a great deal more funding would be—[Interruption.]—would be required, and I really think that the Welsh Conservatives need to start taking a bit of a reality check when it comes to funding. I’ll just leave that there.
I was aware of the event in the Senedd last week and I know that the BMA have a Save our Surgeries campaign, and they have written to the Minister for Health and Social Services, who I’m sure will be responding to the four points that they bring forward in their letter. But I just want to say to the Member that, overall, the number of GPs practising in Wales in recent years has remained relatively steady, and we have had an increase in the number of trainee GPs, which I think is very encouraging, and an increase in wider practice staff. I also think what is really important is that we need to continue that conversation with the public about how it's not always a GP that you need to see. I know that GPs in my own constituency are taking on a number of staff within the surgery, for instance pharmacists and physiotherapists, so that they have other staff to take some of the pressure off GPs. Because it goes back to what we were saying—that primary care, just as secondary care, is facing unprecedented demands at the current time.

The NHS in South Wales East

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 8. How is the Government ensuring that the NHS in South Wales East is fit for the future? OQ59802

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Aneurin Bevan University Health Board is responsible for delivering health services in South Wales East. I would expect it to continue to adapt services to meet the needs of people to ensure that the right services are available to support them.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch, Trefnydd. As we have heard already today,this week we are celebrating the seventy-fifth anniversary of the NHS. It is arguably the greatest gift that Wales, or, to be more precise, Blaenau Gwent, has given to the UK. But if it is to last another 75 years, we must be on our guard; on our guard against those who prefer to see the service in private hands on ideological grounds. We must ensure that staff are not demoralised or overworked, and are given fair terms and conditions. The NHS is nothing without its staff. With that in mind, Trefnydd, can you give an indication of whether the legitimate concerns and pleas for improved pay and conditions raised by the workers, whether they are nurses or GPs, are going to be addressed to their satisfaction any time soon?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I mentioned in an earlier answer that we very much value all the work that our NHS staff do. I absolutely agree with you about what you're saying about protecting it from privatisation; absolutely, our values are not in the same place as some politicians' are. We have to take a reality check about the budget. If only our budget was sufficient to enable us to give a 35 per cent pay rise to doctors, which is what I think, in the first conversation, they're asking for. We would love to be able to do that, but we are not in the position to do that. So, what we need to do is—. It's right about terms and conditions; you need to look at that and the ways in which they work, and I know the Minister continues to have conversations with all trade unions in relation to the pay negotiations. They've been really complex and difficult and it's been hard, hard work. I know the Minister has devoted many, many hours—and her team—to having those discussions with the trade unions.

And finally, question 9, James Evans.

Attracting Major Events

James Evans MS: 9. What is the Welsh Government doing to attract major events to Wales? OQ59808

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government continues to hold discussions with a wide range of event organisers and rights holders to bring major events to Wales. Some discussions are already in the public domain, such as the bid for the Euros 2028. Other discussions need to be conducted on an in-confidence basis.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Trefnydd. Thank you for your answer. What we have seen is that when major sporting events come to Wales, there is a mass participation uptake in that type of sport, whether that be football, rugby or golf. We are actually seeing now between one in three and one in four children obese by the time they are five, and 600,000 people in Wales are overweight. So, what work can the Welsh Government do to attract more of those major sporting events to Wales? Because in doing that, we'll be able to tackle the obesity challenges that we have in this country, by making people take more participation in an active lifestyle in sport.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Events are a vital part of the visitor economy. The economic impact of events is significant, and we estimate that funded events have delivered an average annual direct economic impact of over £55 million. Clearly, that is another welcome thing that we see, where we do see children, particularly, and young people following. I saw a tennis racket at the weekend in Wrexham, which I hadn't seen for quite a while—you know, a child walking around with a tennis racket. We know, don't we, that we're in the tennis season. I remember, when Cardiff were in the Premier League, thinking that here in Cardiff we were seeing far more children—. And when Wrexham are in the Premier League, maybe I will see a bigger uptake of football there. But again, the success that Wrexham football club have had—we're seeing more children now wanting to play football. So, I don't disagree with you that it can be helped. We're very well versed here in Wales in successfully hosting major events. You'll know of all the events we've held. We've had Ashes tests, we've had the Ryder Cup, and of course we've had a Champions League final. I know the Deputy Minister is always open to discussions about bringing very exciting major events to Wales, and we already have a significant events calendar throughout the year.

I thank the Trefnydd.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and announcement.

I'll ask the Trefnydd to swap her hats, or rather her files, in time for this item.

The Trefnydd to make the statement.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There is one change to this week's business. The Business Committee has agreed the debate on the Senedd Commission's annual report on its official languages scheme should be postponed until September. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: At a recent meeting of the cross-party group on the armed forces and cadets, we discussed the important role that armed forces liaison officers play in our local authorities across the country in supporting the adherence to the armed forces covenant here in Wales. One of the challenges, though, that was raised with the cross-party group was the lack of a similar focus in our Welsh health boards. We do, of course, have people who work to support the armed forces covenant in north Wales. We've got Zoe Roberts, who does an excellent job as the armed forces covenant lead for the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. But she, at the moment, is just funded by project funding, which comes to an end in April of next year, and there are no equivalent posts in any of the other health boards across Wales. Can we have a written statement from the Minister for health, perhaps in collaboration with the Deputy Minister with responsibility for the armed forces, to see whether resources can be found to ensure that all health boards in Wales can benefit from these important roles?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Again, I go back to what I was saying about our budgets, which are very, very stretched at the moment. I think it might be best if you just wrote to the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership and ask her to look into that. I'm not aware of any conversations that she's had with the Minister, but perhaps she can advise you of that.

Delyth Jewell AC: The contamination of rivers, waterways and land is an issue that causes public anger, and I'd like to ask for a statement, please, responding to what's happened recently in the Tŷ Llwyd quarry area in Ynysddu in my region. A letter issued by Natural Resources Wales has been made public saying that environmental offences have been committed at the site, accusing the council of allowing liquids that were contaminated with hazardous chemicals to spill from the landfill site to a public road. I visited the site with my colleague Peredur and local councillors, and I know campaigners, including Greenpeace and the Reverend Paul Cawthorne, have been deeply worried. There is a concern locally still that there hasn't been complete transparency about what has happened that the site.
I'd like the statement, please, to reiterate guidance for local authorities to ensure that it isn't repeated—I know there are concerns about other sites, including Maendy; to set out what can be done to empower local people to know more about what's happening to the land under their feet; and, finally, to set out what steps the Government will take to ensure that other sites of public land aren't similarly contaminated by harmful and even carcinogenic waste. Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Unfortunately, we are seeing far too many pollution incidents in our rivers, due to a variety of causes. You'll be very aware, I'm sure, of the water quality summits. We've had two now that have been held, which the First Minister has chaired, alongside myself and the Minister for Climate Change. We will be having a third one later this year. We work with all our partners there. They're round the table with us at these summits, including local authorities, who are very well aware of the guidance. It perhaps would be better to bring forward a statement after the next summit.

Mike Hedges AC: I'm asking for a statement on support for people with more that one neurological condition. People can have more than one of Parkinson's, multiple sclerosis and epilepsy—sometimes all three. The statement should include what additional support is available for those with more than one condition.
I would also like a statement on the pupil deprivation grant from the education Minister, to include: have the applications reduced post universal free school meals; is the reduction in claims from schools due to fewer applications; and is there a different methodology able to be used to support PDG rather than using applications for free school meals.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. With regard to your second question, the introduction of universal primary free school meals has had no impact on pupil development grant funding to date, but I will ask the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to bring forward a written statement.
With regard to support for people with more that one neurological condition, since 2017 £1 million of funding annually has been allocated to the neurological conditions implementation group to support the development and implementation of equitable, high-quality services for all people living with neurological conditions, including those with more than one condition. We will continue to support this activity going forward via the newly established NHS Executive.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, please may I request an urgent statement from either the First Minister or the economy Minister about Gilestone Farm? This Government's decision to buy Gilestone Farm for more than £4 million is poised to have a devastating impact on a major business in the region. It might sound like a really bizarre connection, but please let me explain and elaborate. Direct Healthcare Group, which has a head office and manufacturing site in Caerphilly, employs 600 people and is looking to expand, which will mean some 700 jobs in Caerphilly by 2026. A key part of this growth hinges on the pending acquisition of another business, which is at the final stage of funding. During due diligence as part of the funding sign-off, your Government's purchase of Gilestone Farm has been flagged as an issue for securing that funding for the company's majority shareholder and private equity sponsor. The sponsor takes a responsible approach to funding, with particular focus on the environment, and they are concerned about allowing a mass event such as Green Man to carry out activities in a site of special scientific interest and special area of conservation. It has been warned that if Gilestone Farm plans go ahead, the private equity sponsor will be forced to reconsider investment in Wales. Not only does this put Direct Healthcare Group's expansion and job growth into jeopardy, but it will also leave other future investment in Wales at risk. This Government's move to buy a farm in Powys will potentially deliver a devastating economic blow—[Interruption.]

I have Ministers heckling the Member, who is trying to make a point and ask a question here. I'm quite interested in understanding what's being said. I want to hear it, and I suspect the Trefnydd needs to hear it in order to provide a response. The Member, please, to carry on, and the Ministers to be quiet.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. So, Minister, this Government's move to buy a farm in Powys will potentially deliver a devastating economic blow here in Wales. A Government statement on this matter is absolutely imperative, Minister, because this is an incredibly serious situation, and business owners are understandably worried about this possible impending disaster on their business. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I don't think it's the time to have a statement, because no final decision has been taken. It is important that any environmental assessments are undertaken based on final proposed uses of the site, and not potential uses explored.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'd like to request a statement on mapping the sea bed around Wales. It's crucial work in order to understand the features of the sea bed, to understand the factors that affect biodiversity, identifying potential for energy generation, and forming a strategy for benefiting from energy projects that at the moment would benefit the Crown Estate, and, through that, making the case for the devolution of the Crown Estate. I'm grateful to the Government for responding positively in the past to lobbying from me on making use of the research vessel at Bangor University, the Prince Madog, and I'm pleased to see the Minister for Climate Change in her seat today too. I'd like to make the case once again today for commissioning more work from the Prince Madog team. We have the capacity to map our seas, and we would all benefit from that.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I understand there hasn't been recent contact between the Welsh Government and the Prince Madog team; there's new resource there, especially in light of the end of the SEACAMS project—new investment that has been put in that needs to be used. So, in the statement, I'd appreciate a commitment to looking into funding a demonstrator project, perhaps, for the Prince Madog. I'll write to relevant Ministers with more information. We'll soon be celebrating the ship's twenty-fifth anniversary; I want to see another 25 years there. I'd also like to invite both the Trefnydd and the climate change Minister onto the Prince Madog to see for yourselves just what a brilliant resource it is.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Absolutely. I'm aware of what a brilliant resource it is. I visited it—I'm trying to think was it last year or the year before—with the First Minister, and, as you say, we have been invited, I think, to the celebration that's coming up, I think, later this month in relation to the twenty-fifth anniversary. I know the Minister for Climate Change absolutely understands the point you made. The national marine plan, which was the first marine plan we had here in Wales, looks at that.

Gareth Davies AS: Can I ask for a statement from the Deputy Minister for Social Services this afternoon on the co-operation agreement's ideology against profit-making looked-after children's services in Wales? I know it was mentioned in the First Minister's statement last week, but can I ask for a statement on the engagement the Government have had with private providers, as I've been contacted by many businesses as shadow Minister for social services that haven't been consulted and are worried sick about their futures? We all know that profit making and profiteering are two completely different things, and profit needs to be made for businesses to function. So, can I have a statement detailing why there has been a lack of consultation by the Government and your future plans to engage with the private sector, which currently makes up 80 per cent of overall provision across Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Deputy Minister for Social Services and her officials are fully engaged in the work. Indeed, one of her senior officials chairs the board in relation to this piece of work. If you have any specific concerns, I would suggest that you raise them directly with the Deputy Minister.

Finally, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Diolch, Llywydd. Trefnydd, can I ask for a statement from the health Minister, please, regarding the challenges faced by patients in South Wales Central—and widely in Wales—who are trying to access their prescriptions at local pharmacies? There have been reports by constituents of long waiting times, unavailability of medication and difficulties in getting prescriptions filled on time. These issues are having serious implications on their health and well-being, but also, potentially, are a risk to life. One such example has been the lack of availability of medication for patients suffering from myasthenia gravis, an autoimmune condition that affects the transmission of signals between nerves and muscles, causing muscle weaknesses. A constituent contacted me who was unable to access their prescription for over a month. They're soon running out, and if they don't have this medication, it could prove fatal. The Minister has responded saying that there is availability, but unfortunately, all pharmacies have failed to get hold of these prescriptions to date.
Therefore, could I ask for a statement to explain to patients also what they should do in these positions, when they are told that, actually, medication is available, but no pharmacies are able to access them, and they are hugely concerned about their own life, in this instance?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, as you said, you have written to the Minister and she has responded to you. With regard to your last question, I would assume—and certainly, this would be the advice I would give my own constituents—that they should go back to their GP to see what can be done. I don't know if the Minister is aware of any specific ingredients of medicines that can't be found; she's shaking her head so I assume that's not the case. So, it might be better to write back to her and the Minister can look into it again.

Thank you, Trefnydd.
The next item is motions to elect Members to committees. And in accordance with Standing Orders 12.24 and 12.40, I propose that motions to elect Members to committee are grouped for debate and voting.

Motions to Elect Members to Committees

I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motions formally. Heledd Fychan.

Motion NNDM8316 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Petitions Committee in place of Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NNDM8317 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee in place of Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NNDM8318 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee in place of Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NNDM8319 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Health and Social Care Committee in place of Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NNDM8320 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Local Government and Housing Committee in place of Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NNDM8321 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Adam Price (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee in place of Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NNDM8322 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Adam Price (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee in place of Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru).

Motions moved.

Heledd Fychan AS: Formally.

The motions are moved. The proposal is to agree the motions. Does any Member object? There are no objections. The motions are therefore agreed.

Motions agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion to Elect a Member to the Senedd Commission

The next item is a motion to elect a Member to the Senedd Commission. I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move. Heledd Fychan.

Motion NNDM8323 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 7.9, appoints Adam Price (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Senedd Commission.

Motion moved.

Heledd Fychan AS: Formally.

The motion is moved. Are there any objections? Any objections to the motion? There are none. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

3. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: NHS at 75

Which brings us to a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services—the NHS at 75. Minister, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. I am very pleased to take this opportunity to mark the seventy-fifth anniversary of the NHS. This morning, I had the pleasure of joining representatives from NHS Wales at a multifaith service in Ely to celebrate the wealth of talent and diversity in our workforce.
The COVID-19 pandemic demonstrated how our NHS colleagues are the backbone of our NHS, and, put simply, it would not exist without them. If Aneurin Bevan were here today, he would be astounded to see how the service he started 75 years ago has evolved into a twenty-first century NHS, ensuring that the citizens of Wales are able to receive the health service they need, but keeping true to his vision of providing care free at the point of need, from cradle to grave.
As celebrated by the award of the George Cross medal last year, our NHS is truly amazing. It touches everyone’s lives, and deals with approximately two million contacts each month, in a population of just over three million. Between 1948 and 2021, over 2.75 million babies were born with the support of the NHS. Now, that figure includes most of us, I would imagine, here today. Things have changed for the better. The average UK life expectancy for a female has increased from 70 years in 1948 to nearly 83 years today. A baby girl born in 2020 can expect to live, on average, to the age of 90, although, crucially, Labour is committed to challenging the disparities that we see in life expectancy between our richest and poorest communities.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Eluned Morgan AC: The NHS is unrecognisable from its origins in 1948, but remains true to its values. Medical advances mean that babies born at just 24 weeks' gestation now have a chance of survival. But the NHS could not have survived until today if it were not for the immense skills, dedication, compassion and commitment of those people working in the organisation—106,000 people today, more than ever before. Today, I would like the focus to be on them, and I'd like to pay tribute to them. And I would like to highlight just a few of the extraordinary people who work in the NHS in Wales, to demonstrate the commitment of some of those people who keep our services running every day.
Tony Cheadle started working in the NHS in Wales in 1983 as a laundry production assistant. Tony worked his way up to wash house supervisor and since October 1991, he has held this role in Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, and is part of the All Wales Laundry Service. Over the past 30 years, the laundry has processed over 330 million items of linen, including bedding, towels, gowns and scrub suits, and has used the equivalent of 374 Olympic-sized swimming pools of water in the wash process.
Dr Tracey Rees, chief scientific officer at the Welsh Blood Service, started working in the NHS in 1982, aged 18, as a trainee medical laboratory scientific officer. Working closely with transplant colleagues, she has used medical and technological advances to establish a programme enabling people waiting for kidney transplants to receive previously incompatible transplant organs.
There are many families in Wales with multiple generations working for our NHS. Adele Roberts, the head of quality and patient care in the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee, started her NHS career in 1981. She followed in the footsteps of her mother, a midwife, and her grandmother, a nurse. They fuelled Adele's ambition to train as a nurse, and she has now passed on her pride in the NHS to a fourth generation, her two daughters, who are now a nurse and a physiotherapist.
Suresh 'Joe' Jaimangal is a recently retired nurse specialist, who worked at the memory assessment service in Pembrokeshire. Suresh has dedicated an amazing 52 years to the NHS. Originally from Mauritius, he arrived in Aberystwyth in 1969 and enrolled in nurse training. During his career, he participated in the development of old age mental health services, and latterly, dementia services. In 2022, Joe was shortlisted for the National black, Asian and minority ethnic Health and Care Awards as nurse of the year.
Bernard Jones, an operating department practitioner at Ysbyty Gwynedd, has also given over 50 years of service to NHS Wales. Starting as an operating trainee technician in 1971, Bernard then spent seven years in the Welsh ambulance service, before joining Ysbyty Gwynedd as an operating department assistant, when it opened in 1984.
And finally, I would like to mention Carol Walton, a breastfeeding adviser, who has given an astonishing 60 years of service to the NHS, training as a nurse and then a midwife, and who has been supporting mothers and babies in Gwent for the last 37 years.
Now, we know that the pressure felt in the NHS by its staff is intense and that morale is low after the pandemic. So today, whilst I accept that not all treatment is perfect, I would like to ask the millions of members of the public who do receive good treatment to make the effort to say thank you to them, to show your appreciation—write to them and congratulate them, not just on the anniversary of the NHS, but every time you receive good care. They need their spirits to be lifted, and we all have a job to do to show them that we care and that we appreciate their efforts on our behalf.If we are to protect the NHS we love and the people within it, we all have a responsibility to take action to address the challenges we face.
Wales has an ageing population which, together with increased numbers of people with long-term health conditions, means that pressures on the Welsh NHS will continue to grow.Developments in technology and new medicines are exciting but they come at a significant cost. New genetic and genomic technologies have the potential to revolutionise medicine and public health as well, but they require continued investment and new skills. The demand on our service is not sustainable, and therefore, a serious conversation with the public about future expectations and potential reforms is required. To that end, I welcome today’s briefing that's has been published by the Welsh NHS Confederation, which underlines the importance of taking the public with us as we transform services to be fit for the future.
I completely agree with the NHS Confederation that the public must be personally invested in their own health and well-being and need to participate in the co-production of services. The Welsh NHS Confederation are right to point out that our NHS has a history of continuously adapting to respond to opportunities and challenges and to underline the importance of properly engaging with the public to ensure its sustainability. I welcome all opportunities to do this, including the work I know that the Bevan Commission and others are undertaking this summer.
It's clear that difficult choices lay ahead. We all need to take more responsibility for our health, to support our health and care services and ensure that they are fit for future generations. A preventative approach, combined with increased community-based care, will ensure that people only go to hospital when needed, but sometimes patients may need to travel further to receive specialist services to get the best medical outcome.
Labour in Wales is committed to continuing to deliver that vision of Aneurin Bevan: a service that continues to be free at the point of need. But to ensure that that remains the case, we will continue with our programme of reform and we will need to bring the public with us on that journey. We must use our services wisely, recognising that, every time we use the system, there is a cost. Aneurin Bevan said,
'The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with faith to fight for it'.
The Labour Government in Wales will continue to fight for the health and care services we need and that we want for the future. I wish the NHS a very happy seventy-fifth anniversary, and I want to thank all our health and care staff for their continued hard work and dedication. Diolch yn fawr.

Russell George AC: Can I thank the Minister for her statement this afternoon? We can often think about the NHS in terms of hospitals or equipment, but the best part of the NHS is, of course, the workforce themselves. Without the workforce, we would have no NHS. The Minister referred to those who have been born into the NHS. I was one. In fact, I think, the Minister said most of us in this Chamber were born into the NHS. I think she was diplomatically saying that if you're over 75 you weren't. But, of course, that is right, isn't it? We were born into the NHS, we're supported throughout our lives by the NHS, and the NHS is there for us at the end of our lives as well. So, that is why there is such admiration for the health professionals who work within our NHS.
The Minister pointed out a number of people who had given decades of their lives to the NHS, and it's right to do that; it's right to point out, I think, local heroes, and perhaps we should do more of that in this Chamber as well. To be fair, I receive, Minister, many e-mails and correspondence from those who've had good treatment on the NHS. What fills my postbag more than anything is not those who are receiving treatment, it's those who are not receiving treatment and those who are on a waiting list. It's those who fill our postbags up in this Chamber more than anything else, and, of course, we think of those who are waitingon a waiting list. Often we talk about statistics, don't we, but often people are there, waiting in pain that affects not only their lives, that they're unable to work, but their families' lives as well. But I think it is right to show our appreciation to those in the health service who have worked particularly many, many decades.
Now, I think it's right, as we look ahead to the future, that we take stock of where we're at. It's right to celebrate the success of the NHS, but, as Welsh Conservatives—and I think I would speak for everyone in this Chamber—we want to see our health service in Wales be stronger and survive for a further 75 years. And I think we'd all agree in this Chamber on the guiding principles of healthcare being free at the point of need. But I think it's also right to look at those health professionals and what they're telling us in terms of the state of the NHS at the moment, as we think about the future. We heard the British Medical Association Cymru and the Royal College of Nursing issuing very stark warnings in recent days and weeks about the state of our health service. The BMA said GP services
'will collapse in Wales and the NHS will follow'
soon after unless urgent support is provided. So, I hear what the Minister says in terms of the Labour Government committed to the health service, but we've got a Labour-run NHS that, in many ways, is sadly an outlier when it comes to some very unique challenges here in Wales. That's not to say that there are not pressures in other parts of the UK, but we've got some very unique situations here in Wales, with there being a 50:50 chance of receiving an ambulance on time and, of course, those two-year waiting targets as well, which really do need to be driven down.
And I suppose the biggest issue that I think is there, Minister, that I would want to raise with you is the funding of our Welsh NHS, and I would ask, perhaps, Minister, for you, in terms of what conversations you've had with your colleague sat next to you, the finance Minister, about protecting our health budget into the future and making sure it's adequately funded. And I say that—[Interruption.] I can hear some rumbling.

I think it's fair to let the Member conclude his contribution.

Russell George AC: Well, I've heard some of the rumbling, so I'll respond to it, Deputy Presiding Officer. We know, for every £1 spent in England, Wales gets £1.20, but £1.05 is spent here in Wales. [Interruption.] We know—. I wasn't going to say this, but I've heard the rumblings from the Labour backbenchers, so I'm going to respond to them. We know as well that, this year, in this financial year, the UK Government did not cut health spending in real terms, but that's exactly what the Labour Government have done in this financial year here. And that's not the first time that has happened. These are not issues that I would've raised in this statement this afternoon, but I'm not going to let Labour backbenchers get away with the kind of things that they are saying in the background, Deputy Presiding Officer. So, I'll ask the Minister what conversations she's had with her colleague the finance Minister about protecting the health budget in real terms for the rest of this Parliament. There are—

You have to conclude now, Russell. You did take your time. You chose to respond to the backbenchers. You've now used your time, so conclude now, please.

Russell George AC: So, I'll end, Minister, on a note that I do agree with you on: I do agree that prevention is a big part of the future for the NHS. We need to make sure that people can help themselves in order to avoid getting into the hospital situation in the very first place. One of the issues that's been raised by Welsh Conservatives to promote healthy lifestyles is providing free gym access to local authority gyms for 16 to 24-year-olds. So, I would ask, in terms of your preventative measures that you've spoken about today, whether that is something that you would consider exploring, Minister.

Minister. It's a statement, not a debate.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Today I think is not the day to be indulging in political in-fighting; I think today is the day for us to celebrate the immense achievements of the NHS over 75 years, really understanding the incredible work has been done. The fact is that, today, there are people wandering around our streets, healthy, because of the interventions of our NHS. There are children who have a much better quality of life because of the interventions that have been made by our incredible NHS workers, and today is a day to celebrate them and to celebrate their achievements, and to celebrate the achievements of that incredible visionary—a visionary from Wales, from Tredegar, a son of the Labour Party, a son of Wales, and a son that we today are immensely proud of.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: The health service is a treasure that must be defended and protected. Ever since its creation, there has been a debate on the privatisation of health care, or introducing further elements of privatisation into the health system, but we must safeguard against this. The wonderful thing about the health service is that it treats everyone the same and that everyone has access to vital health services, with the original intention being that nobody suffering illness, accident or disease should suffer financial debt at the same time. Indeed, one of the most surprising effects when the national health service was established 75 years ago was that it started to bridge the gulf between the classes that exists in this state, as people from all backgrounds and all classes had to share wards with only a curtain between them. This is hard to comprehend today, but it was a revolutionary change back then. It is, therefore, right that we take a moment to look back and celebrate 75 years of the NHS.
But what about the service’s future? It's worth asking ourselves at this point what the NHS now is. ‘A health service’ is the simple answer, although, due to the lack of investment in preventative care, it is increasingly more akin to an illness service than a health service. But, at its heart, people make the NHS—the workforce that ensures that people receive treatment and care when they need it. Investing in the NHS often means capital, be it in terms of buildings or equipment or medicines, but investment in people is the most valuable investment of all—our nurses, our doctors, surgeons, porters, radiologists, managers, midwives and the numerous other talented and essential professionals who are part of the health service here.
The unfortunate truth is that the health service is under more pressure now than ever before, following 13 years of austerity, maladministration and a lack of forward planning. The lack of investment in the workforce in terms of providing fair remuneration and the working conditions that they deserve has, over the decades, led to a situation where the service is today buckling. I know that many will point fingers at COVID, suggesting that that appalling disease has led to today’s huge pressure, but the truth is that the service was on its knees before the advent of COVID.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: If we are serious about defending and protecting the NHS, then we must invest in the workforce. I know that the Minister has argued previously that the NHS is employing more nurses than ever before, for instance, but yet, over 8,000 hospital beds have been lost in Wales since 1993. The architects of the Parthenon in Greece wouldn’t have argued that they had more pillars than ever before only for the roof to keep falling down. We need to have the required number of nurses, GPs, clinicians, midwives, radiologists, anaesthetists and all of the other fantastic staff that work within the NHS in order to meet the demand.
The failure to invest in the workforce, not only through improved wages—and they absolutely deserve to see their wages increase in line with inflation—but also, and possibly more crucially, within the working environment—. Improving staff well-being would lead to better retention. Take nursing, for instance; 91 per cent are women yet their contracts are still stuck in the 1970s, without having adapted to the work-life balance requirements of the twenty-first century, meaning better ability to change working hours, better assistance with childcare or elderly care. Clinical staff need the opportunity to train and learn. They should be given the time in order to improve their abilities—after all, this is an investment in them as individuals but also in the NHS, and, ultimately, patients would benefit. And we also need to see greater co-operation between the health boards in Wales so that our national health service can maximise the resources and skills available.
As Plaid Cymru leader, Rhun ap Iorwerth, said earlier, we need to see better resilience within the workforce so that we can see greater resilience within the NHS. This is why we've produced a five-point plan to ensure that resilience within the NHS, by providing a fair deal for NHS workers to create the foundations for a sustainable health and care service; by making our NHS an attractive place to work; by significantly elevating the prominence and priority given to preventative health measures; by taking a sustainable approach to ensure a seamless move from healthcare to social care, and by creating a resilient healthcare service fit for the future. This way, we can look forward to seeing a resilient NHS fit for the twenty-first century. I look forward to hearing, therefore, what the Minister has to say in order to understand the vision to improve the preventative measures and invest in the workforce to allow that greater flexibility within said workforce.
I started my life prematurely, and my life was saved by the NHS. The NHS is a gem. Let's treasure it and protect it and ensure it continues to be free at the point of need for the next 75 years and beyond.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much to everyone in the NHS,yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. One thing that is unique with our health system is that it doesn’t matter what your background is, it doesn’t matter what your means are, the care is there and is available to you from the moment you’re born to the minute that you die.
It is true that the system is under huge strain at the moment. Just to give you an example, we saw an increase of 93 per cent in red category ambulance calls—the most urgent category—between 2019 and this year. That is an immense increase, and clearly the system is going to be under some strain with that kind of increase in demand. We saw in December last year there was one week where 400,000 contacts with GPs were made in one week. We have 2,000 GPs, more or less. Just consider the pressures on them.
And when it comes to the number of beds in the NHS, the Nuffield Trust has said that, here in Wales—

Eluned Morgan AC: —there are 270 beds per 100,000 people in Wales, says the Nuffield Trust, whereas in England it's 170 beds per 100,000 people.
Now, what I will say is that, actually, we are going to see a shift. We're going to see a shift from secondary care into the community. We have to understand that the kinds of demands on our service, the demands of an acute service that's responding to emergencies, has to shift because the population demographic is shifting. We’re seeing older people with more complex problems and they need to be looked after, and they want to be looked after in their community. Now, that will come with a price. If we're going to shift things from secondary care into the community, if we're going to shift staff from our hospitals into the community, we need to accept that there will be a shift, probably, in the number of beds. So, we have to understand that things will change as we modernise, as we respond to the demands on our service, and that's what the Further Faster £30 million that we put on the table very recently was all about. It’s about making sure we follow what we set out in 'A Healthier Wales', in our document that is the blueprint. I know he's new to his post—go and read the 'A Healthier Wales' document, because the blueprint is there, the vision is there; what we need to do is get there as fast as we can.
But that is difficult, and I'll tell you why it’s difficult—it's because we have very, very serious financial constraints on us at the moment, and that's because of those inflationary pressures that have come about partly as a result of the Ukraine war and energy prices. You've all heard me say that we had a bill for £200 million last year for energy costs. Of course, we didn’t have hardly any additional cover for that. We've obviously found additional money for staff this year. We've had an increase in medicine prices, and of course we've got COVID costs. We're just working out how we're going to roll out the new COVID autumn booster vaccination programme—millions upon millions upon millions of vaccinations given today that weren't there to be given three years ago, and yet we don't have any more money in the system. Something is going to have to give, and that is a very, very difficult conversation that we'll have, and that is a conversation that we will have with the public. We understand that they need to come with us on this journey.
But, finally, let me just say something about workforce, because I do think it is about workforce. The fact that we've settled with the 'Agenda for Change' unions is, I think, something that everyone should welcome. I think that has not been an easy negotiation. It has been very, very difficult in the face of the fact that, actually, we have a limited budget. That money hasn't come from anywhere else; it's come from the health budget and, partly, because of the generosity, frankly, of some of my colleagues around the Cabinet table. That is a really difficult thing for us to ask, but that is what has happened. But that comes with a very difficult challenge as well. What we're doing now is we are focusing on the non-pay elements for that workforce.
That's why I do think that, actually, when you speak to some of these people in the NHS, and I have spoken to lots of them today—. It has been wonderful to speak to them, not just in the service this morning, but upstairs as well. What they are saying is, 'It's not all about pay. Actually, we want people to stop abusing us. We want people to stop taking us for granted. We do want a bit of appreciation.' That's why my plea to the public in Wales today is: appreciate these people who are giving their all.
The most poignant moment for me in the service this morning was when we had a period of silence to think about all of those people on the front line who gave their lives in the role of their service, contracting COVID in their jobs. That was a very, very poignant moment. We have got to remember that these people are on the front line for us. They were there for us in the pandemic, and the least that we can do is to give them thanks every time we have contact with the NHS.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, Minister. True perfection is imperfect. Our beloved national health service is perfection, both in its concept and in its simplicity, and it needs the investment that it deserves. Indeed, not so long ago, my own grandmother died in childbirth, being denied any medical aid by the works board, as my grandfather begged for her life from a board of men, in order for her to see a doctor that he could not afford. That is my family history.
Let us, with great pride in our Senedd, our Welsh Parliament, give thanks to Wales and Labour's Aneurin Bevan for creating something so special. Minister, you rightly point out that the NHS was awarded the George Cross medal last year, yet its mere existence must be fought for by all progressives, every single day of our lives.
In Rupert Murdoch's The Times newspaper this week, former English health Secretary Sajid Javid was quoted as saying that the
'Ailing NHS has made us sicker.'
You quoted the words of Nye Bevan also, when he stated:
'The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with faith to fight for it'.
So, Minister, how dangerous a threat does the NHS face from right-wing ideologues, like those in the Tory party right and billionaire Rupert Murdoch, with their very clear articulated wish to break up the NHS, to profit and profit-make from the NHS? And what can the Welsh Labour Government do—

You have gone well beyond your time.

Rhianon Passmore AC: —to protect the cherished ideal of free healthcare at the point of need?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Rhianon. It's really quite moving to hear about your family history, and I do think that we all take the NHS for granted at our peril. We have got to fight for this, as Aneurin Bevan suggested. It will only continue as long as we have the strength to fight for it, and I know that people on the Labour benches will be doing that. I am very tempted, Rhianon, by your offer to take on the right wing and to talk about some of the people who maybe distract us, but today is not the day for that. Today is the day for a celebration and to really commemorate the great work of the NHS in Wales.

Jane Dodds AS: Well, I agree with the Conservatives. This isn't the day for us to actually focus on politics. This is a day for us to celebrate and talk about the achievements of the NHS. The NHS workforce are so generous, and all of those health practitioners across all of our healthcare services are quite astounding. As the Minister says, we heard this morning in the service about those who lost their lives in COVID, and let's not forget them. I just want to name some of those who died at the beginning of the COVID pandemic in Wales.
We lost Donna Campbell, a healthcare support worker; Jenelyn Carter, a healthcare assistant; Gerallt Davies, a paramedic; Rizal Manalo, a nurse;Jitendra Rathod, a surgeon; and Sharon Scanlon, a care worker. There were many others who died and gave their lives for us and to care for us during this very recent COVID pandemic. It is through their generosity, compassion and courage that we can see the health service as it emerges today, and I concur with you, Minister, that we cannot continue as we are. We have to look at the NHS remaining the life and soul of the nation, but we must never forget those who died for the NHS and for us. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Jane, and it was a very poignant moment, as you point out, this morning, because what we've got to remember is those people who gave their lives during the pandemic on the front line, those people we all applauded on those evenings during the darkest days, when we really didn't know what we were confronting, and some of that story is being played out as we speak in the inquiry up in London today. But I would like to thank you for bringing those names to the Siambr today, because we've got to remember these were not numbers. These were not numbers of people. Every one of these were individuals with families, and those families had to sacrifice whilst we were being cared for and our loved ones were being for cared for. I think that our gratitude should go out to their families today to make sure that they understand that we appreciate the incredible sacrifices that they've made for us and for our nation.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Minister, and for having the opportunity to celebrate the seventy-fifth anniversary of the NHS. I'm personally proud that I have contributed to its history, albeit in a small way, being employed by the health service for 11 years between 2010 and being elected to the Senedd in 2021. Where I am disappointed is that the Government haven't tabled a debate on the subject this week, and a Labour Government at that. Thank goodness the Welsh Conservatives have done tomorrow and value the NHS better than the Labour Party.Looking at the statement this afternoon, I saw no reference to north Wales or Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, I wonder why, and I wonder what Aneurin Bevan would think if he could look at the performances of health services in north Wales currently.
Could I take this opportunity this afternoon to ask you, Minister, whether you see the seventy-fifth birthday of the NHS as an opportunity as health Minister to reflect on overall performance of north Wales provision since the birth of devolution as, since the Labour Government got its hands on it in 1999, Glan Clwyd Hospital has plummeted from one of the best performing hospitals in the land to one of the worst? Will you see this week as an inspiration to finally use and implement your authority to turning around the fortunes of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board and do right by my constituents in the Vale of Clwyd and people across north Wales?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks, Gareth. As I say, today is not the day to be drawn on a political fight in relation to the NHS, today is a day to celebrate the incredible contribution of the people who make up the NHS, so I will be making some statements later on during the week, but today, I think, is a day of celebration.

And finally, Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. When the great Labour socialist Aneurin Bevanintroduced the national health service under Clement Attlee's Government, he also saw a massive house building programme of over 1 million council homes and was responsible for local government, as well, to ensure that nobody was left behind. It was part of a welfare system, a general health and welfare system. In Wales, this funding has been squeezed due to 13 years of austerity and inflationary pressures. The NHS spending we try to protect now accounts for over 50 per cent of Welsh Government's budget, compared with 39.1 per cent in 2009-10. Other departments such as social health care, leisure, transport, public protection and youth services delivered through local authorities have diminished. Minister, do you think it's time that the national health service should be holistic, rather than just hospital focused, and that the UK Government Treasury should value and fund all public services, because they all contribute to health?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, and it's great to hear you, again, paying tribute to Aneurin Bevan. Today I had the pleasure of being at an event where Aneira Thomas, who was, of course, the first baby born in the NHS across the United Kingdom, but she happened to be Welsh, and she was there, naming a new train. So, really delighted to be there, because I do think that we've got to commemorate this occasion.
What I will say is that there is an understanding, a very clear understanding in the Welsh Government that health is not just something that is confined to the health department. There are huge impacts in terms of housing, in terms of education, in terms of air quality, and all of these things have an impact on our abilities to thrive and to live well. And that's why one of the things, just to instil that, not just across Government, but actually beyond that to local government and other areas, we will be, later on this year, delivering and making sure we develop and go out to consultation on a health impact assessment, which will be necessary for all future Government legislation; not just in Welsh Government, but also beyond that.
So, thank you for the opportunity to say that, and thank you for the opportunity to really celebrate this great occasion. We should be proud of our Aneurin Bevan, our person who really established the NHS, who gave us this gift and it is our gift to make sure that we look after. It will change; we will need the public to come with us, but it's an important day today to celebrate and to celebrate the incredible achievements over 75 years. Diolch yn fawr.

Ithank the Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language: Update on Post-16 Workforce Development

Item 4 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language: update on post-16 workforce development, and I call on the Minister, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Our programme for government commits to promoting parity of esteem between vocational and academic routes in Welsh education. This reflects how important we feel both are to creating the skilled, innovative and flexible workforce that we need.
As I stated in my vision for further education speech last year, supporting the professional learning and career development of the teaching staff in the post-16 sector is vital. To enable us to ensure resilience and continued improvement, we must provide our teachers and assessors with access to a rich source of professional development to enable them to refresh and renew their skills.
High-quality learning requires high-quality teachers. From delivering a range of compelling options to our young people, supporting learners across our communities to take that brave step back into learning, or providing continuing learning opportunities for those in employment, our post-16 workforce is one of which I am incredibly proud. Our sector is flexible, adaptable and learner focused—something that has been clearly evident over the last few years. It is essential that we provide our workforce with the time and opportunity to develop and enhance their skills both professionally and personally.
Today, therefore, Dirprwy Lywydd, it gives me great pleasure to launch the professional development hub, which will bring together information and guidance on everything from the initial qualifications needed to how to progress a career in the post-16 sector.
We have developed professional standards for all parts of the sector. We have worked in partnership with the sector to revise the professional standards for further education and work-based learning teachers to encompass adult learning practitioners. These standards have professional learning and collaboration at their core. They reflect the needs of the sector and enhance professional learning in a structured and cohesive manner.
But our workforce is not just made up of teachers. We have developed standards for our support staff too. For the first time, we reflect the unique contribution that support staff make to help our learners to reach their full potential. Soon, our leaders across the sector will have their own professional standards, which will provide a set of standards that guide their working practices and provide the framework for their further development. These standards provide a blueprint for excellence. They are not simply the Welsh Government’s standards. Rather, they belong to the workforce. They’ve been written by the sector and driven by the sector.

Jeremy Miles AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, we are supporting continuous professional development. We provide funding directly to colleges for professional learning, encouraging collaboration across the sector to deliver development and resources designed by the sector themselves.
We are constantly looking for new and creative ways to improve workforce links with industry, to ensure our teachers and assessors retain and hone their professional skills and experience. Technology is rapidly changing, and we must ensure that we can adapt and keep up. We've continued to support the knowledge transfer programme, which supports colleges in the delivery of activities designed to accelerate and build expertise for staff and increase learning experiences for all. The programme builds industry expertise in the sector, with the express purpose of delivering new content and concepts. This ensures our workforce keeps up to date on changing technologies and practices within the workplace.
We're providing opportunities to showcase excellence. For the past five years, the Royal Commission for the Exhibition 1851 has worked in partnership with the Education and Training Foundation in England to provide technical teaching fellowships that celebrate, develop and disseminate exceptional practice in technical teaching. This year, for the first time, the application process will be open to practitioners from across Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and I want to encourage all of the excellent practitioners of science and technology in Wales to apply. Let's use this opportunity to showcase some of the incredible work our post-16 practitioners are delivering.
We are changing the way we support post-16 education. Next year will see a huge change to the oversight of post-16 education and training in Wales, when the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research comes into operation. The commission will have research at the core of its functions and encouraging research within the post-16 environment will be a key driver for the organisation when it comes into effect next April. We're encouraging practitioners to engage in action research projects to investigate their own practice and make a direct change to their teaching and learning practices. Developing the capacity for research within the post-16 sector is critical to ensure the sector continues to develop and build for the future. We know that the further education sector is keen to become more involved in research and innovation, and the new commission provides, I think, a unique opportunity to build capacity and build connections.
We are safeguarding our learners and professionalising our workforce. We're developing legislation to require a greater number of practitioners across the workforce to register with the Education Workforce Council. This will provide additional layers of safeguarding for our learners and enhance the professionalism of the workforce across the entire post-16 sector. Whether providing opportunities for learning in a college, in industry, or in a community setting, we want to ensure our workforce is skilled, adaptable and confident.
We're keeping our learners at the heart of everything we do. The role of our post-16 workforce is clear: to ensure our learners, regardless of their age, experience or background, are offered and supported to access opportunities to gain the skills and qualifications they need to progress in life and reach their full potential. A career in the post-16 sector can be extremely rewarding. Where else can you find learners from so many diverse cultures and backgrounds, where learners can be aged 16 or 96, and where the subjects being taught can be so broad, innovative and challenging?
I am confident that we can make Wales a nation where it's never too late to learn, and that includes practitioners themselves. I am proud to support our post-16 workforce with the suite of materials that we have available today, and look forward to continuing to invest in and develop this excellent team of people for the future.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you for your statement today, Minister, in this important field, and I welcome the launch of the hub, which seeks to address the increasingly concerning picture of the post-16 workforce. However, I am concerned that this has perhaps come too late in the game, with your own statistics showing that there has been a year-on-year decrease in students enrolling on post-16 teacher training in Wales since 2017. That means this has taken you nearly five years to look into this crisis and a further two to take action. Your scoping study identified a significant lack of complete data on the current skill sets within the sector, meaning that subjects are likely to not have the supply to meet the demand. The knock-on effect of this, of course, is an unskilled workforce. We know this to be true, with 60 per cent of Cardiff capital region employers listing skills shortages as the main challenge for recruitment. Whilst the new hub website does signpost teachers to further qualifications, it has not changed the offer available for practitioners, hence we find ourselves back in the same situation as before with no extra support. As such, are you going to ensure that there is sufficient upskilling of teachers to be able to support the growing demand for science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects?
Then, statistics have also shown that there is a decreasing enrolment number for post-16 teacher training places being undertaken in Wales by those who can speak Welsh. Whilst I welcome the prospectus and the opportunities for all that you've outlined in regard to teaching fellowships, which outlines a range of Welsh courses on your offer, your approach has perhaps been far too inward looking and does not take into account skilled post-16 teachers who are just across the border, with skills that we so desperately need. It is vital that we train and retain talent from Wales, but we must also attract that talent from across our borders.
Upon looking at the hub, I would like some clarification on the funding for these Welsh course offers. They are currently listed as 'funded for practitioners'. So, my second question to you, Minister, is: will you be providing and funding intensive Welsh courses to help draw that talent in from further afield and encourage ex-teachers back into the field, or is it just for current practitioners within Wales?
My final concern—whilst I support, wholeheartedly, increasing the research capacity in Wales, as it's key to our future success—what incentive is there for the practitioners to engage in the action research projects that you outline in your statement? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for those questions and the welcome that she has given to today's announcement, recognising, as her question does, how important it is for us to support our post-16 workforce, and I welcome her support for what we are doing as a Government in order to be able to do that. She will know that we've had a post-16 workforce development programme under way for some time and, indeed, have commissioned Dr Steve Bell from Estyn to undertake a review on our behalf, as part of that wider programme, to look at initial teacher education for post-16 workforce and a number of other recommendations that he has made. There are 22 recommendations in the report that Dr Bell has provided us with, and they cover a range of areas, some of which touch on the points that the Member made in her question, and I will be formally responding to the recommendations in the report shortly. It comes, of course, at a time when, as I mentioned in my statement, the regulation and funding of post-16 is changing, isn't it, through the establishment, which the Senedd has approved, of the new commission. So, we're looking at what aspects of that are for the new commission and what aspects are for the Welsh Government, and what needs to be done, if you like, in the meantime, to make sure that progress can happen in a seamless way, which I know is something that she will support.
I'm not sure I recognise the reference that the Member makes to an inward-looking profession. I think what we have is a profession that draws on a range of different talents and experiences, both professional and personal. And the network that is able to be built through the connections that the knowledge transfer programme, for example, establishes between the workforce and industry I think shows a very outward-looking focus, actually.
And I think the point she closes on, in relation to the action research—what incentive is there—in my experience, the incentive is the incentive that professionals bring to wanting to continuously improve their practice, and the funding that is available to do that I think enables them to have the space to develop their practice based on action research.
I think there will be an important opportunity, actually, as the new commission starts to bring together all the disparate responsibilities in research, to develop that in the further education space much more than perhaps we have to date. And I think there's a lot of enthusiasm, actually, in the sector. It'll be a different kind of research than a university will do, and I've already seen, as I'm sure she will have done when she visits colleges, very interesting linkages between colleges and significant businesses in key sectors in their local economy, operating at a kind of scale that perhaps wouldn't work for a university, and I think we want to see more of that: it's good for learners, it's good for the practitioners and it's definitely good for the local economy.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, for this afternoon's statement. There are many things to be welcomed, and it's wonderful to have the links to the websites shared with us too, and I'm delighted to see those. I have a few questions, because, clearly, we welcome the emphasis on lifelong learning. This is a crucial sector in terms of securing opportunities for people to engage with education at whatever age, be they returning or retraining. So, certainly, we do have to ensure that we have a workforce in this sector that have the necessary skills to develop all of those skills necessary for the development of our nation.
Some of the things I'd like to focus on in looking at diversity specifically, and how do we ensure that the workforce—. You talked about securing opportunities for learners from all backgrounds, but how specifically in terms of the workforce? We've seen a number of reports over the years and over decades, in fact, demonstrating that there is a gap in terms of opportunity for women specifically in this sector, and people from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities too, that we see that they're not reflected, particularly when it comes to leadership roles within this sector. So, what emphasis will there be in terms of ensuring that we do have diverse representation, so that learners also see a pathway for them in the future in these areas too?
If I could just go further on Laura Anne Jones's points on the Welsh language, clearly, in terms of the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, there will be a duty on this commission to promote Welsh-medium and bilingual tertiary provision and encourage demand in the sector. So, how will you ensure that that message is conveyed clearly to all our providers, and also in terms of that assurance in workforce development? I certainly welcome many things in terms of the training opportunities, but, in terms of meeting the demand and generating demand, then certainly this is something that we will need to secure, particularly in areas such as the one I represent in South Wales Central, where we know that the provision doesn't currently exist and that it's really needed.
I also wanted to ask—. It's wonderful to see these resources and that they're available, and I'm fortunate that you e-mailed a link to me so that I could look at them. But, in terms of promoting all of these resources, what work will be done there, and also in working with those providing careers advice in schools, but also in job centres and so on, in order to ensure that people do consider this as a very real option in terms of a career and can benefit from all of the resources that you've invested in? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Important points and questions from the Member, so thank you for those. In terms of ensuring that there is sufficient diversity and that the workforce reflects our society, and the emphasis on the STEM elements too, that the bias in terms of gender continues, unfortunately, what struck me as I attended the launch of the technical teaching fellowships recently—and the emphasis in those is very deliberately on STEM subjects more widely—was that so many of the people who had succeeded as part of that programme, they were women rather than men. So, that isn't always the experience, but it was striking on that day—the majority of the people that I spoke to were women rather than men. So, that's very encouraging, I think, and seeing that being extended in Wales is very important, because it's part of the wider work that the Member was talking about in terms of role models and so on. So, that is very important.
But we also need to ensure—it was part of the question that Laura Anne Jones asked too—that people want to enter the profession and want to enter the post-16 profession in particular. A piece of work has been ongoing for a year or more now to collaborate with the colleges and the teaching unions to tackle some of the working pressures. Those are very well known in terms of the school context, perhaps less discussed in the context of colleges, but work has been ongoing to ensure that we do make progress in that regard too.
One of the points that the Member concluded on we will be discussing perhaps further in the debate on Hefin David's report, namely that we encourage, in terms of careers, school pupils to look at the post-16 sector too. I think that there is more to do to ensure a better relationship between schools and colleges. There are many challenges in the pathway to ensure that that happens, but one of the rewards, if you will, of ensuring that is that we can do what the Member suggested, and that pupils consider a career in the post-16 sector as a real option for them.

Heledd Fychan AS: What about the Welsh language?

Jeremy Miles AC: I'm sorry. Excuse me—Heledd Fychan did also ask about the role of the Welsh language. I've just appointed the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol as an advisory body for the commission on the Welsh language in general, and I think that that relationship is going to be very important. I'm pleased that I've been able to do that early on, so that the coleg can help to shape the work of the commission from the outset, and to ensure that there is an ambition as part of that. We're currently looking at the appointments to the board, and I'm very pleased to see that a range of people have put themselves forward to be on the board who have an experience of teaching and educating through the medium of Welsh. So, ensuring that these things are part of mainstreaming the work of the commission, I think, is very important to ensure the level of ambition that we want to see across the system.

And finally, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, I welcome this statement today. There's a report from the cross-party group on construction, 'Insights from Industry'. That was compiled with support from the Construction Industry Training Board and also the industry participants. Of course, we welcome this statement today, and recognise, as you do in your report, that technology is rapidly evolving. That is the case, of course, for the construction industry, who could be key partners to deliver our commitment to net zero. It is a key area to develop skills. The report states that the Government should raise awareness of the Government's green personal learning account; that can clearly be used in this space. It will do two things. It will help support the industry, and, of course, it will help support prospective new entrants. The knowledge transfer programme that supports colleges, which you've mentioned, will also be critical in this space. So, can you, Minister, give assurances that you will work with the CITB and stakeholders to help develop the skills that the construction industry will need going forward to deliver our promise, which is to build faster and to build greener?

Jeremy Miles AC: I think Joyce Watson makes a very important point. The construction industry certainly does have an important role in helping us meet our net-zero goals. Part of that, as she said, is in relation to the expansion, actually, of our personal learning accounts, and the element of that that is earmarked for net-zero skills. I'll be making further announcements shortly, which I'm sure she'll welcome, in relation to the future of that. It's been a successful pilot and we want to do more of it, and I think the construction sector is able to take advantage of that. We've also expanded our degree apprenticeships programme into the construction sector recently, recognising the point that she makes that there are skill distributions right across the ranges, which the sector needs, and which learners can participate in with those higher level skills as well.
The knowledge transfer programme is now in its third year of funding, and the whole point of that—she mentioned technology in her question—is to be able to keep absolutely current, isn't it? Construction is one of those sectors where there is rapid technological change. We know of this Government's support for modular construction, but there are other elements that touch on the use of different renewable energy propositions in construction. So, I think it's a rapidly moving sector. The sorts of things that we're talking about here can, I think, be of particular benefit to that sector, and the sector has a lot to offer colleges as well.

Thank you, Minister.

5. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Update on Building Safety

Next we have a statement by the Minister for Climate Change—an update on building safety. I call on the Minister, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to have this opportunity to share a progress update on the actions we are taking, together with Plaid Cymru, to address building safety in Wales. There are seven parts to the update today, including our orphan building scheme, the developer work plans in place with a timescale for remediation, access to mortgages, the social sector, as well as the leaseholder support schemes and our work to reform the building safety system in Wales.

Julie James AC: The first of those, Dirprwy Lywydd, is orphan buildings. In my oral statement in March, I announced that I was taking forward 28 buildings as part of the orphan buildings pilot scheme. For all 28 buildings, the developer has either ceased trading, is unknown, or the building was developed over 30 years ago. Responsible owners of these buildings have been contacted, advising next steps, and our consultants are preparing work plans and works to be undertaken. Dirprwy Lywydd, as previously announced, the costs for these works in our orphan buildings scheme will be covered by the Welsh Government, with works scheduled to start shortly on the first of the buildings.
Here in Wales, I am determined to take every opportunity I can to protect leaseholders. I have been made aware of cases where leaseholders have paid upfront for fire safety works in orphan buildings. Dirprwy Lywydd, we do not want leaseholders to pay for something that is not their fault, and that is why I have agreed to fund eligible works already undertaken, in medium and high-rise buildings that fall into the orphan building category. Therefore, where fire safety works have been paid for by leaseholders in orphan buildings that relate to in-built construction faults, they will be paid back. The funding payments will be available to managing agents on behalf of leaseholders by application from today. I urge responsible persons that find themselves in this position to contact my officials. Where leaseholders have had to pay to rectify fire safety works in buildings developed by companies signed up to the Welsh Government’s contract, I strongly encourage these companies to reimburse leaseholders. I am pleased some companies have already started to reimburse leaseholders. I commend these companies; they have set an example that others should follow.
Dirprwy Lywydd, the third of the items I want to discuss today is the developer work plans. In March, I announced that six developers had signed our legally binding contract that underpins our developers' pact, and three developers had confirmed their intent to sign. Today, I am very pleased to confirm that all developers expected to sign our legally binding contract have now done so. This represents their commitment and intention to address fire safety issues in buildings they have developed over the last 30 years. Our contract sets out strict timelines, requesting work plans and an update on works under way. Today, I am pleased to announce that all developers are actively engaging with us, with all but one of the work plans, one that is not due until 7 July, now returned.
I am also happy to provide the following update on the works developers are already undertaking: Persimmon are now on site at Century Wharf and Aurora; Bellway are on site at Prospect Place and ACM cladding has been removed from Quayside apartments; McCarthy Stone have now remediated all fire safety works in buildings in Wales that they have developed; and Redrow have now provided funding for internal fire safety works. I am pleased that developers have stepped up to their responsibility. This shows their commitment to building safety in Wales. My officials will monitor works closely, and ensure timelines are progressing, to make certain this positive start continues. I am also pleased my officials have had positive discussions with the remaining developers, who are working on plans to start works as swiftly as possible.
Point 4 of my update today, Dirprwy Lywydd, is on lenders. I announced in March that the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors had agreed to extend their guidance to valuers to apply to both England and Wales. Today, I am pleased to confirm that the guidance, once published, will include a link to the Welsh Government webpage. This will include a list of properties that are included within our building safety programme scope, specifically those named within the developer's individual contracts and those buildings included within the first cohort of orphan buildings. It will also hold information such as building status and remediation plans. This will provide valuers an indication of building status and help support the removal of barriers, and enable mortgage valuations of flats in affected blocks. I continue to work closely with the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors and UK Finance to ensure leaseholders in buildings affected by fire safety issues are able to access mortgages.
The fifth update today is social housing. In March, I also provided an update on the support I have provided to medium and high-rise residential buildings in the social sector. The Welsh Government have provided funding through the social landlord grant to remediate medium and high-rise buildings in the social sector. The latest and last round of funding will close in July 2023. Following this final round of applications, I anticipate all social sector buildings where we have received an eligible application will either be complete or will have a work plan in place.
The sixth area is the leaseholder support scheme. Dirprwy Lywydd, I am aware of the significant impact building safety issues are having on affected residents, both financially and, indeed, on their health and well-being. In response to this, I launched the leaseholder support scheme. The scheme only exists in Wales, and is aimed at those facing financial hardship as a direct result of these building safety issues. In March, I provided an update following a review of the scheme. I am pleased to report that one property has now been purchased completely, and five properties are proceeding through the property purchase process. Where these properties are bought, this will provide leaseholders the option to move on or rent the property back. I am also pleased to see an increase in enquiries following the review, and I continue to urge any leaseholder in financial difficulty to complete our eligibility checker to see if they can access support through this scheme. For further information, please visit the Welsh Government website.
Dirprwy Lywydd, the last part of it is the reform, design and construction and occupation phase of the building programme. I remain committed to reforming the current system of building safety in Wales. Our proposals for reform at the design and construction phase of a building were set out in our White Paper, 'Safer Buildings in Wales'. The first phase of reforms to the building control regime is being progressed. This will commence legislative changes to rectify problems identified within the current regime. The first phase will bring in more stringent regulation of the building control profession, which includes private building control approvers, building inspectors and local authorities exercising building control functions. The changes will improve competence levels, transparency and accountability in the building control professions. This is to make sure that only individuals who have the relevant skills and competence are advising decision makers before important building control measures are taken.
A number of related consultations have recently been concluded and responses will be published shortly. In the autumn, we will be in a position to make this first set of secondary legislation for the creation of registers for all building inspectors and building control approvers. The registration process is likely to be opened in October of this year, with a view of moving to the new regime from April 2024. More information on these arrangements will be published shortly.
My officials are also working at pace on a building safety Bill for Wales, which will be introduced later this Senedd term. These plans for reform will improve accountability for building safety at the occupation phase. The intention is for the new occupation phase regime to include all multi-occupied residential buildings, not just those of 18m and above, as is the case in England. Over the past 12 months, we have been working with stakeholders in industry and with residents to help us develop our thinking further. I feel that local authorities would be best placed to regulate a new occupation phase regime, working in close collaboration with our fire and rescue services. Last month, I, along with the Minister for Finance and Local Government and the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership, wrote a letter to the Welsh Local Government Association, fire and rescue services and local authorities to ask for their support in exploring this proposal. I'm pleased to report that those discussions are now under way, through a series of workshops in June and July, which officials are taking forward.
Dirprwy Lywydd, we are listening carefully to what stakeholders are telling us. It will take time to work through the detail. But what we need is a regime that works effectively to meet the needs of Wales, one that helps to minimise risks to residents so that they can feel safe and secure in their homes. I continue to take forward our building safety programme and look forward to updating members as we develop our ambitious plans for delivery. Diolch.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Minister, for your comprehensive statement. As I am sure you will agree, it is enormously frustrating for leaseholders who have found themselves in this position, and it is without doubt that many of them have suffered from severe mental health problems as a result. I think many of the problems have arisen because people are left in a state of unknowing, and when they start looking for answers they meet a wall of silence and, sadly, much of the information that is released, including statements such as yours today, are not necessarily understood or even picked up by those affected.
It is my understanding, Minister, that, whilst developers have signed a contract to carry out the remedial works to make good dangerous and unsafe cladding, and some have now started work, as you have mentioned, some owners of properties are still in limbo and they have not received communication as to when work will start. Some management agents have even been told not to expect work to begin until at least 2024. This does, unfortunately, mean, Minister, that there are people still living in properties that have been identified as having unsafe cladding and can, unfortunately, expect to remain so for some time, and, so, still may face the worry, anxiety and mental health issues that come about because of the cladding issues.With this in mind, and with the intention of reassuring leaseholders for the purposes of helping with their concerns, would you consider writing to affected leaseholders explaining the actions that you are taking and what they can expect going forward?
I would also like to take this opportunity to highlight that some management agents who have seen costs of buildings insurance rise due to the uncertainty over cladding have passed this on to tenants and have considerably charged more in their fees, with some leaseholders now incurring price rises in their management fees by as much as 831 per cent. With this in mind, Minister, will you set up an inquiry to establish exactly how each management agent responsible for properties in Wales has responded to the cladding crisis and disclose if some are exploiting this tragic situation?
The cross-party legislative proposal on high-rise building safety in Wales, led by my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders, received a majority of support in this Chamber. In particular, it called for this Government to create a duty on developers to refund leaseholders for reasonable costs incurred during the building safety issues. But, unfortunately, the First Minister's legislative programme made no mention of this whatsoever, and it did not make a Bill on building safety a priority over the next 12 months. Given the number of people affected by this, your statement today and the cross-party support in this Chamber for such a Bill, can you give an exact date of when you will be bringing in such legislation before this Welsh Parliament?
Finally, Minister, whilst many builders have signed the pact and contract committing to remediation work, it is still possible for many of those to take a considerable amount of time before they start and complete the works. I'm interested to know what mechanisms you have available to ensure that they carry out the work in a timely manner and in good faith. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Well, thank you, Joel. I did, actually, I think, answer quite a few of those questions in my statement, but just to reiterate: the Bill timing is before the end of this Senedd term—I've always been very clear about that. It isn't in the next year for the reasons I've set out in my statement.
The managing agent point is a good one. We meet very regularly with a group of managing agents, however, unfortunately, I do not have the power to regulate managing agents. I am in constant contact with the UK Government about their leasehold reform programme, and I hope that that will include a reform of the managing agent process, which is much needed, and I really very much hope is part of the leaseholder reform.
I've also asked the UK Government if they'd like to consider the role of estate agents in that as well, since we have a large number of people in this Chamber who are affected not just by high-rise buildings, but by estate management practices, who are often the same group of people. But, unfortunately, I don't have the power to regulate them, Joel. But we do meet with them very regularly and we do take up various issues, including costs and administrative costs with them, in order to make our views known.
In terms of the information getting out to people, it is perfectly possible to sign up to our information news sheet. I've encouraged, many times, all Members of this Chamber to sign up to that; you can then pass it on to your constituents and anyone getting in contact with you. So, if you haven't done so already, I urge you to do so. It's easily accessible from the Welsh Government website. Once you're signed up to it, you can pass on its details to any constituent who's interested in being kept in touch. That newsletter goes out very regularly and has all of the update information. It's also possible to access older newsletters, if you're not up to date at the moment, and that's the most efficient way of making sure that you're in touch with the process as it goes forward.
If you want to write to me with any specific building, because you're concerned about the timing, obviously I don't have the information for all 193 buildings about my person, so if you want to write to me about a specific building, please do so.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to the Minister for today's statement. I am grateful for the update, and once again, I welcome the steps that the Welsh Government is taking to tackle this serious and complex issue. Again, it is good to see the agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Government bearing fruit, making a positive difference to people's lives every day.
We must not forget the devastating tragedy that befell Grenfell Tower in 2017. The fire that destroyed Grenfell Tower led to the deaths of 72 people, and it reminds us of the urgent need to ensure the safety of our buildings and safeguard the lives of our citizens here. Following the events at Grenfell, residents across the United Kingdom, including here in Wales, have been living in constant fear and anxiety. They are burdened by the knowledge that their own homes may not be safe, and that that very place that should provide sanctuary and safety could put their lives at risk.
For far too long, we've seen a culture of cutting corners by major developers at the expense of public safety, and it's good to see steps being taken to tackle that.We know that there are 171 buildings with safety issues, including the 28 orphan buildings that the Minister has already announced that she will seek to have remediated. But I would like to raise the situation at Victoria Dock in Caernarfon. As far as I understand it, this development is an example of a development that falls between two stools, as it were: it isn't an orphan building, nor is it covered by the developers' pact. So, what is the way forward for the residents of Victoria Dock, and how many other developments, of the approximately 171 buildings with safety issues that we know of, also fall between two stools in this way? Can the Minister confirm what work is being done and the next steps for residents of these buildings, please?
The Government's plans are to be welcomed, but until the remediation work is complete to make these buildings safe,residents will continue to live in fear. A number of residents will continue to worry about the timescales for work to be done to make their homes safe. When therefore can we expect to reach a point when every building will be safe for residents without them, or the owners, having to pay for the work? What is the timetable for that work to be done? When can we expect the work to be completed?
Once again, I would like to note that I support the Minister when she says that she will consider every option, including adapting legislation and blocking developments, and it's good to see that we may not need to do that as she has succeeded in getting all of the major developers to sign up, so I congratulate her on that point. In the statement, the Minister said that she will encourage leaseholders to apply for financial support, so what steps is the Minister offering to ensure that these people know about the options available to them, and understand how to apply for that support? The Minister also talked about lenders and said that there is guidance that will be published. She said that this will happen in due course. Can we have an assurance in terms of when that will happen? How much longer will people have to wait until these loans are available?
Finally, I want to welcome very much that greater control will be introduced on managing construction, but there is ambiguity about the registration process for building managers. Why that ambiguity, and can the Minister provide greater assurance in terms of that timetable too? Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mabon. Just on Doc Fictoria and the smaller—. So, Doc Fictoria specifically was developed by Watkin Jones, which I'm sure you know. I've written to Watkin Jones, and they've confirmed that they are working with responsible owners in respect of the remediation works. So, I'm very pleased about that, obviously. Officials have a meeting with Watkin Jones coming up shortly to discuss the plans that are outlined there, so that's a very specific building that's in train. More specifically about buildings with smaller developers who aren't in the pact or contract—. There are three categories of buildings, so, there are the buildings covered by the big developers, there are the orphan buildings, and then there are the buildings covered by the smaller developers, some of whom have only ever done one building. And some of the smaller developers aren't small companies, but they have small residential footprints. There are a number of those, so they might be recognisable companies, but they might only have one or two buildings in Wales.
So, we're in the process of contacting all of the developers and the managing agents, and we're exploring what can be done for the smaller developers. So, this is a bit more complicated, I'm afraid. Where a smaller developer is a small developer for the purposes of residential, but actually is a household name, we expect them to make the remediation works happen. Where the developer is a small developer in every—whatever—we don't want to push people into bankruptcy. So, we will explore with them how we can get them to do the remediation in a way that does not push their company into bankruptcy, for obvious reasons. So, we will work with them to make sure that a funding mechanism is found that makes them remain as a viable company. We need developer companies in Wales; many of them are important local employers, but that they stump up for the remediation as appropriate. So, that's a more complicated category of people, for obvious reasons, but we are absolutely in the process of working with them.
As I said in response to Joel, we work with all the managing agents as well. So, we are fairly comfortable that we've got all of the buildings, but as I always urge all Members, if you come across one that you think isn't in the loop, then do say. It's possible to sign up to the newsletter at any point, and all of you, I hope, are signed up to it and should be getting that, and it's possible for you to send it out to constituents and anyone else who's interested. We are very keen to get it out as far as possible. And then, I also work with a stakeholder group that has a number of tenant organisations, the National Residential Landlords Association, the Welsh Cladiators, TPAS Cymru—every representative organisation we've been able to get to meet with us to make sure that we're getting it out as soon as possible. I met with them only last week, I think it was—sorry, my diary's a bit—. I never quite remember when I did what, but I think it was last week in Cathays Park 2 in person, which was very nice.
Just in terms of the building managers, I outlined the system that we're going to put in place to do some regulatory work right now, and then we will have a Bill that will reform the entire system by the end of the Senedd term. We haven't been able to put a time on that Bill because a little bit of it is tied up with how the regulations work, and how the various reforms that are going through in England that pertain to it work, because this is a very difficult area for devolution. It’s not straightforward at all which bits are devolved and which aren’t. So, for example, property law is not devolved, but leasehold law is. Well—those are two bits of the same coin, right? So we’re having to work with the UK Government lawyers very carefully to make sure we have the right powers to do the various bits of it that we’re able to do. And I have very recently exchanged correspondence and spoken with the relevant UK Minister, who tells me that their leasehold reform Bill is still on track for later this year, so I hope that’s true.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you so much, Minister, for your statement. It’s good to see that it’s getting the time on the Senedd floor. Thank you for your expertise and responses as well to this very complex area. I just wanted to, in the time I have available, concentrate on one area, which is the leaseholder support scheme; the ‘buy backs’ is another description. So, just to query support around this and the progress, I heard from someone taking part in the scheme that they’re now a year on from their initial application. They sent it in immediately after the window opened, but they haven’t had an outcome yet. So I’m kind of keen to understand the timescales there, and if this is an exception maybe I could write to you with the details around that. So just a little bit more about the timescales of that.
And secondly and finally, could you also please clarify that, when the properties are bought, what the process then is in relation to leaseholders having the option to move back or to rent the property back? Thank you very much, Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Jane. So, the scheme to date has had 17 applications. One has been completed, five are still going through the process, one is currently going through an evaluation process, and 10 were ineligible. I will say, though, that if you know somebody who’s been judged ineligible, we are actually reviewing it every three months, so it is worth reapplying because it’s very difficult to understand how much it’s going to cost, so as we understand how many people are coming through, we are loosening the strings, if you like. So it may well be that you become eligible if you weren’t before.
I absolutely do urge everyone in financial difficulty to do the eligibility checker. We give people the option, so once it’s been through, you can rent it back if you want to, and if you want to move on then, you want to move on. Some people have moved on already. We’ve already extended the scheme, for example, to people who are landlords, who bought it for pension support and have only one property, so there are other—. You don’t have to be resident to do it. I’ve had a lot of letters off people who have been stuck because they can’t sell and have got more children than the flat can now accommodate, for example. So I’m very keen that we help people out of that circumstance.
Sometimes, when people apply, we’re able to help them just sell it on the open market, because we’re able to explain the process for the EWS1, and so on. And financial advice is available to everyone who applies because sometimes that’s actually all they need. So, it is worth doing. If you’ve got a specific issue, then you’ll have to write into me, Jane, if that’s okay. I don’t have the detail of every single one of them about my person, but I can easily find out for you.

Mike Hedges AC: I very much welcome this statement. Firstly, can the Minister confirm that, despite statements being spread on social media, there is no simple quick fix of just passing a law and it will all be done? Because I am—and I'm sure that the Minister is—fed up of people telling us that you only have to one thing and everything will fall into place. Well, both of us know that that is untrue.
I welcome the statement that you do not want leaseholders to pay for something that is not their fault. That is why they have agreed to fund eligible works already undertaken in medium- and high-rise buildings that fall in the orphan building category. Will South Quay, built by now-defunct Carillion, be covered?
I welcome that all developers that were expected to sign legally binding contracts have now done so. This represents their commitment and their intention to address fire safety issues in buildings they have developed over the last 30 years. I’m very pleased with that, and what I’m asking is now that they’ve signed it and we know their commitment, and we know that they've set stricter timelines for requesting work plans, and an update on works under way, will the Minister or the developer share that information with people living in developments like Altamar? Because I think it’s been very much a lack of information from these people that has left a hole in the system that has been filled by those trying to make trouble.

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you, Mike.There absolutely is no single fix for this. If there were, we would have taken that route, of course. There is no simple, straightforward fix. The route that England has taken allows people to sue themselves the developer. We've always taken the view that that's actually even more complicated than what we're doing. I much prefer a situation where it's the Welsh Government that takes the legal responsibility for ensuring that a contract delivers. So, we're very clear about that. There certainly is no single fix.
South Quay, I believe, falls into the orphan building category, but, if you want to write in to me, Mike, I can confirm that in a more straightforward way, because I'm doing that from memory, but I believe it does. I've recently written to Altamar, and I'm quite happy to discuss that with you separately. We know where we are with Altamar; I've just written to them.

And finally, Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Gweinidog, I'm pleased that Mabon ap Gwynfor asked for clarification on what was meant by 'due course'. I don't think I heard an answer to that, so, when will the guidance to valuers be published? It's so important that leaseholders are able to access mortgages. But does the Gweinidog know at what percentage against valuation that will be, and what would be the interest rate? I welcome your statement that, where leaseholders have already paid to rectify fire safety works, you will strongly encourage developers to reimburse them. But are there any powers of enforceability with regard to that?
I'm told that residents from Celestia have written to Welsh Government officials, highlighting failures of developers in complying with the contract. They believe developers are dragging their feet and rejecting surveys and are in breach of the Welsh Government contract in Cardiff and in Swansea, and they haven't received a remediation plan or a timeline. Could you indicate when the Celestia residents will receive a reply, and how will you ensure compliance with the contract?
Jane Dodds highlighted the leaseholder support scheme. Despite it being announced over 18 months ago, there has only been one purchase, with only five in the pipeline. Contrary to the statement, Gweinidog, residents believe that they will not be allowed to rent back their property, due to legal reasons. Could you clarify that? And in any event, should we be renting properties that are deemed to be unsafe? Diolch yn fawr.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Rhys ab Owen. So, the Welsh Cladiators are part of the stakeholder group that I met with last week. The issue with Celestia is very complicated and subject to litigation, so it's not something I can easily discuss on the floor of the Senedd. I've offered to meet with them to discuss their particular concerns, but I think that their particular concerns are linked to the fact that they're in complicated litigation and not the wider scheme, a point that was made at the stakeholder group in question, and which I'm obviously repeating here for your information.
In terms of reimbursement, we are expecting the developers to reimburse. If they don't, then I'll have to see what can be done. I've got no reason to think that they won't do that. We've asked them to, and none of them have pushed back on that. I'm not going to take expensive legal advice until I need to, so I'm going to take the view that they're going to do what they said they'd do until it's obvious that they aren't. So, that's where we are with that.
I've categorically stated a number of times on the floor of the Senedd now that, if somebody goes through the leaseholder support scheme and we buy the property, they can rent it back from us. I don't know how to clarify it any more than that. Obviously, the buildings are unsafe in the sense that they need remediation works, not unsafe to live in. If they were unsafe to live in, then the fire service would have evacuated them and shut them down. A number of them have a number of things to make them safe to live in—so, they have fire safety issues that the fire authority has deemed necessary. But that means that they are safe to live in. Otherwise, as I say, the fire authority would have shut them down, and my colleague Hannah Blythyn and I have had a number of conversations with the fire authority about the inspections that they undertake. So, just to be really clear. That's not to say that the buildings shouldn't be remediated as quickly as possible—of course they should.
If a leaseholder goes through the support scheme and doesn't want to lease it back, that's also completely fine with us. It takes a long time to do it. It's a complicated process. It has to go through a valuation process. It has to go through a number of stages. I'm not terribly surprised that it takes 18 months from start to finish, to be honest. As I say, we review the criteria very regularly—every three to six months—because not as many people as we thought have applied to go through it., and therefore I'm looking to see if I can loosen the strings a little to make sure that other people who might not have been eligible would be eligible. We know that 10 people were deemed ineligible when they applied for the scheme, and I've been encouraging them to come forward again, if they want to, because we have loosened the strings a little on the scheme, so it's possible that they would be. I'm written to personally myself by people who are in this situation, and I always refer them to the scheme, and I also refer them to the update, the regular update that we have. Again, if you haven't signed up, please do, it's really obvious on the Welsh Government's website, and then you can pass it on to your constituents, who are all entitled to receive it. It comes out electronically very regularly with all the updates.
Oh, I'm sorry, on the chartered institute, I didn't answer that with you either, Mabon, apologies. So, I'm not in control of the timescale for that; it's their guidance and not ours. We've been working with them. I'm delighted that they've agreed to include Wales and that they include the Welsh links, but I'm afraid I have absolutely no way of making that guidance happen in any time other than the time that the institute itself sees fit. But I know that they're working on it and are looking to get it out as soon as is reasonably practicable.

David Rees AC: I thank the Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Government Response to the ‘Developing the UK Emissions Trading Scheme’ Consultation

Item 6 is next, and it's a second statement from the Minister for Climate Change, the Government's response to the ‘Developing the UK Emissions Trading Scheme’ consultation. I call on the Minister, Julie James.

After her drink, of course. [Laughter.]

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Climate change is an existential threat to our society, with impacts now being seen worldwide. Global temperatures continue to rise, and, as highlighted by the March 2023 publication of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change synthesis report, we are reaching a point of no return. Action on climate change is therefore imperative to preserve our planet for future generations. And as we do this, we must guarantee this action provides a just transition, ensuring that our transformation to a sustainable economy is inclusive, equitable and leaves no-one behind.
The UK emissions trading scheme is a joint four-nation scheme. It is a highly technical and hugely important policy lever in reaching net zero. It currently applies to the industry, power and aviation sectors, which represent nearly half of Welsh territorial emissions, and works by placing a limit and a cost on emissions permitted by participants. This ensures the polluter pays for the environmental impacts of their activities and incentivises decarbonisation.
Participants in the scheme are generally large employers, and we must consider economic and environmental factors holistically. The greatest economic harm would result from a failure to prevent climate change, and it is essential that we stimulate positive change. However, we do need to do so in a way that does not risk disadvantaging Welsh industry and supports their decarbonisation pathways to a net-zero world. Failing to do so will result in these industries relocating to countries that do not have the same climate ambitions, risking global emissions being raised rather than lowered.
The 2022 'Developing the UK Emissions Trade Scheme' consultation covered a wide range of proposals. I, alongside my counterparts in the UK ETS Authority, am pleased to have published the government response to this consultation. I am confident that we have struck the balance required in making a suite of difficult decisions.
The key strategic proposal of the consultation was to reduce the emissions cap of the scheme, making it consistent with UK net zero ambitions. Reducing the cap will limit emissions, further reducing year on year, keeping us on the path to net zero. We have agreed to set the cap at the top of the range consulted on. While it is regrettable that this does allow the most emissions, this is pragmatic to ensure industries are not forced out of Wales and the UK to countries that do not meet our climate ambitions. It is also important to note that this is a more ambitious cap than is reflected in the Climate Change Committee’s balanced pathway, on which our targets are based. It will therefore align the scheme with net zero, while still supporting a smooth transition for participants, and mitigate risks to the market.
Alongside this, we decided that the industry cap—the level of allowances available to be given freely to those at risk of carbon leakage—will be set at 40 per cent of the overall cap. This will allow sufficient support for specific operators at risk, particularly important for Welsh participants, who may face greater challenges than other regions in accessing decarbonisation pathway technologies due to their location or existing infrastructure. The UK ETS Authority will continue to develop the free allowance policy and methodology, further improving targeting of free allowances for those most at risk of carbon leakage. Those in receipt of free allowances remain incentivised to decarbonise. Decarbonising allows recipients to sell the allowances they no longer require on the secondary market, thereby securing a financial benefit.
In addition, 53.5 million allowances will be released UK-wide to further smooth the transition to the net zero cap and ensure liquidity in the market as we move to the new tighter cap. These allowances come from previous years of the scheme but were unallocated, therefore do not affect the high ambition of the scheme. It has also been decided to reserve 29.5 million allowances for future market management. This provides an important contingency for the second half of this decade, where the unknowns related to technologies and other challenges to decarbonisation become greater and the cap will become tighter.
I welcome the decision to phase out free allocation for the aviation sector. This supports recent findings that the sector is not at risk of carbon leakage and recognises the crucial need to encourage decarbonisation within the sector. This will be done gradually, to allow businesses time to prepare.
And while I have recently confirmed that Welsh Government has met both the first carbon budget and the 2020 emissions reduction interim target, there remains work to be done to ensure we meet our second carbon budget and beyond. Wales has already achieved a decrease of emissions of 39 per cent in 2021, compared to baseline. However, we recognise the need for more action by the Welsh Government and others in order to maintain progress and meet future targets. Over half of Welsh emissions are not currently covered by a carbon price, and expansion of the ETS may aid decarbonisation in other sectors.
The Government response proposes expansion of the UK ETS to the maritime and waste sectors. These are sensible areas to begin expansion, as both have not yet achieved the necessary emissions reductions and have strong support for inclusion from our stakeholders.
While my absolute priority is to incentivise decarbonisation, I'm also conscious that we may need to tackle some residual emissions in the future. I'm therefore pleased with the decision to include engineered greenhouse gas removals and non-pipeline transport of carbon dioxide within the scheme. This will support operators to capture and transport carbon dioxide via means such as shipping, should carbon capture and storage be proven at scale. Inclusion will incentivise investment for industries, particularly those in south Wales.
Greenhouse gas removals will be further subject to completion of the necessary work to ensure robust monitoring, reporting and verification of emissions. This commitment provides a strong signal to industry, allowing preparations to be made and ensuring that all options are being explored.
Additionally, I welcome the acknowledgment that future work is required to assess whether the UK ETS is an appropriate market for nature-based removals. This will allow assessment of risks related to farming, land prices and permanency prior to committing to inclusion; issues that are of greater concern in Wales. I also welcome the work to understand the MRV of agricultural emissions and trust the findings will aid in developing decarbonisation plans for the sector in the future.
The changes to the UK ETS will play a crucial role in achieving Welsh climate targets. Through the incentivisation of emission reductions and the financial responsibility placed on polluters, the UK ETS encourages industries to adopt a more sustainable practice. This not only contributes to Wales's climate change commitments, but also promotes the development of a greener economy, generating new opportunities and fostering long-term environmental sustainability. However, it is essential that this is done in a way that anticipates the challenges faced by our industrial partners and their workforce and supports them to deliver, ensuring a just transition, whilst also reducing emissions globally. Diolch.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd, and it’s good to be here subbing for Janet Finch-Saunders today. I’d like to thank the Minister for your statement, and I agree with you in your opening remarks that climate change is an existential threat to our existence on this planet. We must do as much as we can to limit the effects of climate change, and it is right, as you say, that the polluter does pay. We do need to move to a more sustainable future that brings everyone along that journey, and not those who can afford it. To that end, Minister, what discussions have you had with the authority about fast-tracking the availability of installations to help those businesses to decarbonise? It’s good to see that there is a four-nations approach in the statement to developing the scheme.
In your statement, you mention the aviation sector, and I understand that there will be provisions put in place to support airlines and single-place routes. But can you outline what impact assessment has been done on Cardiff Airport to see what impact this scheme is going to have on that sector?
It’s good to see that the Welsh Government have been pragmatic about the cap, because I’m sure you agree with me, Minister, that we just cannot force our problems onto other places in the world and push our businesses abroad, so I’m pleased that the Welsh Government has done that, even though, as you've said, it is quite regrettable that we've had to come to that position.
In your statement, you mentioned that the scheme will not disadvantage Welsh businesses. I’d just like to understand that a little bit more, and what the Welsh Government is going to do to make sure that that does not happen, and what schemes or anything you’re putting in place to support businesses.
You also mentioned in the statement that this will be extended into the maritime and waste sectors. What I’d like to understand from you today, Minister, is how is this going to happen, and what effects might this have on those industries and what discussions have you had with those sectors around this.
As I mentioned earlier, it’s good that this is a UK-wide approach, but, going forward, there’s obviously friction sometimes between Governments on how things are rolled out, so I’d like to know what frameworks the Welsh Government has put in place with the other Governments to understand how this is going to work and to make sure that the scheme is a success.
And finally, Minister, one part you did slightly mention in the statement was agriculture. This could have a huge, huge impact on agriculture and the pollutants that come from that. I know we have the carbon calculator now, which is coming in, but I'd just like to understand a bit more about this scheme and the impacts that it could have on our agricultural sector here in Wales.
I'd like to thank you once again for your statement. If you could answer those questions, I'd be extremely grateful. Diolch, Deputy Llywydd.

Julie James AC: Diolch for those questions. There are some quite technical answers to some of the questions that you have asked.
The technology itself is not part of the UK ETS. This is about the cap and the trading scheme only. But we do have the technology discussions with the Ministers with other hats on. So, it's not part of the authority itself and its discussions, but we've all got several hats. We have a continuing discussion with the UK Government, the Scots Government and the Northern Irish Executive, as it is at the moment, about the technology availability. Wales, for example, participates in the hydrogen HyNet—. I've forgotten the name of it now. It's gone out of my head completely. The HyNet trial case in north Wales. We participate in that. We have some carbon capture technology being trialled down here in south Wales.
One of the reasons I'm particularly pleased with the way that we're announcing this today is that the non-pipeline transmission of carbon dioxide will be very important indeed for decarbonisation, both of the oil and gas industries down in Paul Davies's neck of the woods, but also the steel industry in Dirprwy Lywydd's area as well. We know that there are no good geological arrangements here in south Wales that would assist, so non-pipeline transmission is a very important part of that, and I'm delighted to see that.
That partly answers your question about how we're ensuring that Welsh industry is looked after, because we fought very hard for that, because of the particular significance of that to Welsh industry. We've been working at this for quite some time. We've got quite a lot of very knowledgeable technical advisers about how exactly the scheme would work. You won't be at all surprised to find that I have met, alongside the Minister for Economy, a large number of the players in the major manufacturing sector in south Wales, because they're very interested in the scheme and have been pushing us in particular directions for it. I think they're—. I can't say they're 'delighted' at this, but they're very relieved about some of the things that are included in this and think it's perfectly liveable with, and they want to get on the decarbonisation journey as fast as possible.
You specifically asked about the aviation sector. We're obviously working with Cardiff Airport to make sure that it can participate properly in this, but we're phasing out free allocations only for aviation by 2026, so that means they'll have to pay for carbon allocation, because we know that they're not at risk of what's called carbon leakage; they can't go somewhere else, basically. That will enable us to ensure that the free allocations are going to those who actually need them, so those who are at risk of carbon leakage, but in the meantime we will continue on a policy on sustainable aviation fuels. Actually, one of our big ambitions for Cardiff Airport is as a destination for sustainable aviation fuel, so, in some ways, this is a real incentive for them to get along that as well.
And then you asked about extending to other sectors. As I said, 54 per cent of emissions in Wales are not currently covered by the UK ETS or carbon pricing mechanisms, so obviously we have to continue to look at what can be done for those other sectors. We're particularly pleased to look at domestic maritime and waste incineration and energy from waste from 2028, with monitoring, reporting and verification from 2026. That gives three years for the monitoring, reporting and verification process to be put in place, and then another two years before they've actually got to start trading. That is, we think, a very good time for them to get properly incentivised to decarbonise, and actually there are good routes to decarbonise for both of those sectors, so it's an important addition to the trading caps. I'm very pleased to see that.
There are a large number of other sectors that we think will eventually be included, but they're a while down the path, and all the time the technology and technical advice to us about exactly how the monitoring, reporting and verification process might work in those other sectors is developing. I'm not going to comment on any of the other sectors today. I'm not the technician in this, by a long way. For us, it's about taking advice on what could be done, what could be properly reported on, verified and then monitored, and then how that can help those sectors decarbonise.That's the actual critical part of it—how can it help them decarbonise. And that's the path we'll go along.
And then there are frameworks in place. The UK ETS Authority is an equal partnership of the four nations. We all have the same vote, so nobody can veto anybody else—we have to agree. That's been a very interesting process to be a part of.

Delyth Jewell AC: I welcome this statement, Minister—thank you. Evidently, the tension here seems to be between, on the one hand, the need for what we do to be the best it can be, the most ambitious it can be, and then on the other hand, the need for global co-operation. As I understand it, the World Trade Organization has commented on the proliferation of different carbon pricing schemes that are being proposed worldwide, and they've warned about fragmentation. Could I ask for your views on that tension, please?
I was going to ask you about sectoral targeting. I won't rehearse that further—James Evans has raised that. But on emissions measurement, could you tell us please how you think data on emissions should be collected and assessed, and who you think should be responsible for providing that information? Which emissions do you think should be in the scope a UK scheme? On that point, we often talk in this Chamber about global responsibility with our carbon footprint. How do you think we should be measuring the emissions from products that have been imported, that have long supply chains or complex production processes? I know that's a knotty issue, but it's so important in a global world.
We've spoken before in the Chamber about how we can empower individual consumers, and businesses, of course, to make informed choices. I know the UK Government is seeking input at the moment about labelling. Could you tell us more about how the Welsh Government would be part of that, so that consumers and businesses in Wales could be further empowered? Does it have to be voluntary, though, as I think the UK Government is proposing? Can't we be pushing for a change in law to require full transparency about this, or indeed to demand the powers to be devolved so that we, in Wales, could go further on that point?
But getting back to the scheme, finally, could you please tell us what guidance you feel should be given further to businesses about how to comply with whatever scheme is set up? I realise that we're talking here about something that hasn't happened yet, but what do you think needs to be done with the business community in this interim period so that they feel that they are part of this—that it's not something that is being imposed on them, but that they feel that buy-in?
And finally, finally, when do you think the scheme should come into effect? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Thank you very much, Delyth, for that. I will do my best. There's a bit of that I just don't know the answer to, so I'll have to write to you, frankly. It's very technical indeed. On the emissions measurements and the detail, I'm afraid that depends on which industry you're talking about. It's not possible to give you a global answer to that, so I think I'll have to write. I'll probably write to all Members and just set out how that works. I don't have it about my person, and you really do need to be a technician in the area to understand it. So, I'll make sure that that's published for Members, Dirprwy Lywydd.
In terms of the rest of it, there definitely are tensions in the scheme and different allowances and so on. One of the reasons it's taken quite so long to get to where we are is that we've had a long conversation about that exact tension of whether there should be a carbon border tax, for example, to go alongside that. This price is different to the one in the EU. The one in the EU was never going to decarbonise any industry here in Wales because it was aimed at decarbonising the much more carbon-intensive and much less efficient industries in the east of the European Union. So, we were always in the good bit, if you like. Now that we're on our own, we think that our industries should go faster in decarbonising than they would have otherwise. So, the price has been deliberately set to do that, but it's been set in a way that allows people to adjust to that. We have a free allowances arrangement, and then it ramps down, as you'd expect. So, people are incentivised, as I said in my statement, to decarbonise, and then trade on the free allowances, we hope, to get some money in place to help their decarbonisation journeys. It's deliberately calibrated to allow industries to do that, and to monetise it, effectively. After all, this a trading scheme that we're talking about, so it's important to do that.
The guidance is, again, I'm afraid, sector specific, not surprisingly. A lot of conversations have been going on between officials and the various technical advisory bodies. We've had a couple of political meetings with the companies in question to discuss it at that kind of level, but all of the work has been done at the technical and official level, as you'd expect, and the guidance will come out to assist each industry. If you want me to, I could point you to where that is. I would not suggest publishing it, Dirprwy Lywydd; it's not of interest to anyone who isn't technical in the area. It's not aimed at an audience such as us, I'm afraid; it's aimed at people who are long versed in the technicalities of each of these industries. So, you're very welcome to read it, but I suspect we would need assistance. I only speak for myself; I have certainly needed assistance to understand it. But yes, there is guidance, of course, on how that's to be worked.
The coming into effect has been calibrated exactly as I said. It's to come into effect from January 2024, the new cap, and that's the trajectory at the cap at the top of the range. So, that will come into effect in 2024, and then there's a scheme that ramps down, effectively. As the scheme goes out, the cap reduces over a period of time, as you'd expect. The initial implementation won't have too much effect, actually, but it signals the start, if you like, of the journey, so that industries must respond to that. We're releasing 53.5 million allowances to smooth the transition to the new cap. There will therefore be no sudden drop between 2023 and 2024, and that's quite deliberate.
We're also, as I said in the statement, retaining 29.5 million allowances as a contingency. So, if any particular industry does get into difficulty, we do have some contingency allowances that we can use to make sure that they aren't put into—. We don't want anyone to go out of business as a result of this; what we want them to do is go along the decarbonisation journey in good order as part of a just transition. The calibration has been really complicated. One of the really nice things about working in the four-nation way has been actually to get that calibration and to hear from the other nations of the UK where they are. We've got a lot more manufacturing in Wales than I think a lot of people realise, so we've had quite a big part to play in that. That's been a very interesting part of my work over the last few years.
Now I've lost my page where it actually had the rest of your questions on it. Let me go back to it.
On the labelling, we would much prefer it was compulsory, but it's not devolved to us. We've made that point repeatedly. This isn't the only area either; I'd quite like to see labelling on a number of products so that people can make a better choice about what they're actually buying, not least around plastic in products. Personally, I'd quite like, Dirprwy Lywydd, to be told that my tea bags have plastic in them, or that my wet wipes did. At the moment, it's not possible to know that. We continue to push the case to the UK Government that labelling enables choice and that drives change in the industry, and we'll continue to do so.

Mike Hedges AC: I very much welcome this statement. We have global warming and temperatures continue to rise. We're reaching the point of no return. Action on climate change is therefore imperative to preserve our planet for future generations. The weather in June has shown us that we desperately need action, breaking the previous monthly average by almost 1 degree Celsius, when previously movement has been about 0.1 degrees C.
I welcome that the Welsh Government has met both the first carbon budget and the 2020 emissions reduction interim target—well done. Do you agree with me that it would also help that those who support action in this Chamber also support it in their communities and with their constituents? I'm sceptical of carbon capture and storage; if stored underground, surface water getting into contact with it will produce carbonic acid, which will make the sea, where it will eventually end up, more acidic.
Finally, does the Minister also agree with me that exporting carbon emissions will not do anything to reduce world emissions and global warming? Getting our steel from Mexico or China will make matters worse, not better.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Mike. I absolutely do agree with that last point, and I've made it myself repeatedly. It is quite clear that we have quite efficient industries, even though they're carbon intensive; it would not help at all to export that to a country that did not have the same climate ambitions. This scheme has been very carefully calibrated to make sure that people stay onshore for that exact reason.
We absolutely are facing an existential crisis, Dirprwy Lywydd, as I said in my opening remarks. I don't want to alarm Members too much, but today, in the newspapers, there are reports that the June we've just experienced was the hottest and driest ever, since records began, and that El Niño, the big thing that affects global weather patterns, is considerably warmer this year—the warmest it's been since 2016. Already, forecasts for global warming, sea warming, are—. Well, I mean, they're above 1.5 C, so it's catastrophic, really. So, these schemes are absolutely necessary. They may be technical in nature, but they are absolutely necessary, let's be clear, if the planet is to remain habitable for humans. We often talk about saving the planet; we're not saving the planet, we're saving us. So, if we don't act soon, we will be the next species looking at extinction. These things are upon us now; we really need to act.
So, I would say, in closing, urging the industries that are affected by this to be pathfinders, as many of them want to be, to show the global community what can be done by a small nation that wants to be climate efficient, because unless we all act—we are all in this together; there's nobody who's going to escape. So, I commend this scheme to the Senedd, and I really don't want to be too depressing about it, but we really must act with haste.

Well, you're not closing, because you've got two more questions to come to you. Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Yes, apologies, Minister, I'm one of those others wishing to speak. But I'm very grateful for this statement, because it's incredibly pertinent to my constituency, and, as already stated, the development of the UK's emissions trading system is of huge importance to Wales, as businesses here face the challenges of decarbonising in our efforts to tackle climate change, as you've just highlighted.
In my constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, we have the Valero refinery, and it's a hugely important local employer, and it will be reliant on an ETS that enables them to continue to operate in what is fast becoming a net-zero world. I would like a little bit of clarification on two specific points, if I may, which could impact the success of the scheme. These points aren't in this statement specifically, so I'm conscious that you may not be able to answer them, but I'm grateful for anything that you can say. Firstly, what efforts has the Welsh Government made, within the UK ETS Authority, to make changes to the cost-containment mechanism that enables the UK ETS Authority to intervene, if deemed appropriate, if prices are elevated for a sustained period? Additionally, do you feel that Climate Change Mitigation works well as a mitigation against cost spikes in the UK ETS allowance market? And, can you outline what consideration has been given to a carbon border adjustment mechanism to be combined with the UK ETS, as a solution to carbon leakage for Welsh industry? And would you be in agreement that a carbon border adjustment mechanism can help level the playing field for Welsh industry competing against international rivals, if that's possible? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Sam Kurtz. I can see you've been speaking to Valero, because that's pretty much the agenda we had last time we met them.
So, yes, a cost-containment mechanism—. We're very clear, we've retained the contingency for exactly that reason, because we haven't done this before, we think we've set the cap correctly, we've taken into account all of the various industries' submissions, I suppose, or proposals, in this regard. We've had many, many long conversations at the UK ETS Authority itself about this; we're not the only Government being lobbied by carbon-intensive industries, for obvious reasons. So, that's why it's there, and we are very happy that it will work. It can be reviewed, if it turns out not to work, but we are pretty convinced it does. It's why the cap has been set where it has as well, so that people can ramp up for it. And I do think that the industries in question want to decarbonise. I mean, they absolutely do. I don't know if I actually said this in answer to Mike Hedges, but we can't just rely on the technology coming good; we have to look at every single lever that we can look at.
The carbon border adjustment mechanism isn't part of this announcement, but it is under consideration, for all of the reasons that various industries in Wales make the point, and I agree with them, for what it's worth. We obviously have to trade in a global market, and we need not to be disadvantaged. So, we do not want steel or oil or gas coming here from somewhere else, where there is no emissions trading scheme, and then finding that it's cheaper as a result of that. So we absolutely do want to look at that. That will be the next thing I'm sure that the ETS itself, the authority, will look at. And again, we want to work with the industries to make sure that we understand how the mitigations work exactly and what their decarbonisation pathways are. So, as I said in answer to Delyth, there will be guidance and much technical discussion amongst them about how that works—absolutely not my expertise, nor should it be—and then we will receive policy advice off the back of those technical discussions, to see whether the scheme requires adjustment in due course. But the scheme is designed to keep people trading, to keep them profitable, to allow them to build up a little bit of a war chest, if they're able to decarbonise faster, and then to move towards decarbonisation in that way, because, as I said, this is an existential threat. This is not some scheme cooked up by me, would that it were. This is a real issue, and the industries in question are on the coast. They're right in the front line of global rising sea levels, for example, so they need to do this just as much as we need them to.

Finally, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, you won't be surprised to hear that I'd like to add to what my colleague the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire has already said. I agree with you, Minister, that some of these big industries want to decarbonise and they want to work with you as a Government. And I think the UK emissions trading scheme sits at the heart of the UK's industrial decarbonisation efforts, and I'm sure you'll agree with me, Minister, that it's crucial that energy-intensive industries are able to feed into this scheme, and that their feedback is really taken on board.
Now, I know that there are significant concerns around free allowances and the cost-containment mechanism, for example, and I appreciate that you made reference to free allowances in your statement today. But in terms of free allowances, perhaps, Minister, you could tell us a bit more about the Welsh Government's view on the future of free allowances for energy-intensive industries beyond 2026. For example, does the Welsh Government believe that free allowances should be confirmed for industries that cannot access deep decarbonisation technologies, such as carbon capture storage, until well into the 2030s? And secondly, perhaps you could also tell us more about the conversations that you've had with the sector in Wales about the UK emissions trading scheme, given that emissions reductions will only be achievable with a resilient domestic refining sector.

Julie James AC: Yes, I completely agree with that last statement, of course, and we want to have that resilient sector. They do absolutely want to decarbonise. They understand both the global need for it, but actually the commercial imperative, too. So, there's a good bottom line in this for industries that do it properly. We also listened to all the concerns regarding existing features of the free allocation policy, which weren't working as intended. And we're taking action to address those through a series of technical changes, which the industry will be aware of and which I don't have the detail of here, and frankly, I'm not sure I'd understand them even if I read them out. But we have been working on the technical changes, and there are a series of people looking at each industry-specific issue to make those technical changes.
I'm sure you're aware that the UK Government has recently consulted on the carbon leakage mitigations, including product standards and carbon border adjustment mechanisms, as I just referenced. There are obviously significant links with the UK ETS and the free allocation policy, and so the UK Government is committed to working closely with the authority to ensure cohesive policy agendas there, and that was something that Valero, actually, in particular, really pushed when I met with them, because the cohesion in the policy is one of the things that will most make it something that they can implement, and not something that's likely to interfere with their business model.
We've done our very best to make sure that we put our industry into the best possible position to both be commercially viable and to decarbonise. We'll closely monitor it—the technical experts will closely monitor it. No doubt, there'll be a to and fro as the cap tightens about that, and we'll have to keep that under constant monitoring to make sure that we calibrate it correctly. But this has got to happen; we've just got to make sure that our industry stays on top of it.

I thank the Minister.

7. The Animal By-Products, Pet Passport and Animal Health (Fees) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Item 7 is the Animal By-Products, Pet Passport and Animal Health (Fees) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023, and I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales to move the motion—Lesley Griffiths.

Motion NDM8311 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Animal By-Products, Pet Passport and Animal Health (Fees) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 13 June 2023.

Motion moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move that the Animal By-Products, Pet Passport and Animal Health (Fees) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023, which were laid before the Senedd on 13 June, be approved. This instrument seeks to make amendments to the Animal Health (Miscellaneous Fees) (Wales) Regulations 2018 and the Animal By-Products and Pet Passport (Fees) (Wales) Regulations 2018 to ensure that there is no under- or over-recovery of costs. These amendments do not contain any changes to policy or processes, only the fees that the Animal and Plant Health Agency can collect on behalf of Welsh Ministers in relation to statutory animal health services carried out by the agency.
The fees are designed to fund APHA's front-line statutory animal health services for safeguarding animal health and supporting our domestic and international trade. These are: inspection of consignments and licensing of facilities involved in the trade of livestock semen, eggs and embryos; inspection and licensing of facilities involved in the handling, storage or incineration of animal by-products not destined for human consumption; inspection of live animals arriving from third countries at our border control posts—not currently used in Wales, but we need this for future-proofing; surveillance of commercial poultry flocks for salmonella and licensing and proficiency testing of private laboratories carrying out salmonella tests under our national salmonella control programme; and registration and approval of premises intending to export breeding poultry, day-old chicks and hatching eggs from GB.
The proposed amendments also include the removal of the fees regime for pet passports, as APHA is no longer involved in the issuing of passports for the movement of pets to and from the UK and other countries. Following public consultation, new fees for these services were last introduced in 2018, with a commitment to businesses where fees would be reviewed biennially to ensure that the charges and exemptions were appropriate. Due to the agency’s focus of efforts and resources on EU exit work, COVID and avian influenza, these reviews were put on hold, and the fees for these schemes have consequently not been refreshed. As a result, businesses are being charged in a way that does not reflect full cost recovery for APHA. Overall, the schemes are failing to achieve recovery of their full costs, with a deficit of between £0.4 million and £0.5 million per year. This shortfall is currently being funded by the public purse. The average increase to overall scheme fee income to achieve full cost recovery is 51 per cent. Individual fees within the schedules range from an 18 per cent decrease for inspecting documentation at border control posts for consignments of poultry from third countries to a 193 per cent increase for the inspection and quality assurance of laboratories testing samples for the national salmonella control programme.
Given the cost increases for some elements within the fee schedules, we are proposing to follow the approach agreed in the 2018 consultation and apply a phased increase in fees over two years. Border control post services are the exception to this phasing option. Here, we are proposing to increase fees and achieve full cost recovery from July this year. This will help us avoid operational conflicts with changes that may follow the review of the new borders and boundaries fees process, which is separate from the statutory instrument we are discussing today. However, Wales has no current BCPs operating.
If we delay uplifting the fees further, we will only increase the gulf between cost and recovery, so when fee increases are finally implemented, the magnitude of the changes will be even greater because of the impact of compounding factors such as inflation. APHA have continued to engage with Welsh businesses on service performance and fee schedules following their 2018 consultation, and these businesses are aware of the proposed new fee schedules. The last communication was issued on 10 March. Enquiries received through this engagement have focused on service performance.
There are further planned changes to fees, which is the work stream 2. These will cover new fees and expansion of existing fees. The areas affected are artificial breeding controls, extending coverage to all animals; export health certificates; new fees and the introduction of an online billing system; egg marketing inspectorate new fees; poultry meat marketing, which are also new fees; and the welfare in transit. There is no timeline for this, but work is expected to follow the coming into force of this statutory instrument. Diolch.

I call Alun Davies to speak on behalf of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The committee considered these regulations on 26 June. Our report and the Welsh Government’s subsequent response are available on today’s order paper.Our report contains nine reporting points—five technical and four merits points. I’m grateful to the Minister for her response, which we were able to consider at our meeting yesterday afternoon.
In our first technical reporting point, we highlight that an amendment was made by these regulations that will result in definitions in the Welsh language text now no longer appearing in the correct alphabetical order. Minister, in response, you said that a minor change will be made to the wording of the provision to correct this prior to making. I would be grateful if you could outline to this Parliament what that change will be.
And this is a key question. If you are going to make changes to a piece of subordinate legislation prior to making the legislation but after the Senedd has considered it, a full explanation should be given to Members of the Senedd before they are asked to vote.Otherwise, it isn't clear what the Senedd is voting to approve.
Our second, third, fourth and fifth technical points all relate to the issue of defective drafting. I do not propose to go through all of these points in detail; our report contains explanations of the errors we have identified. Again, Minister, you have told us that changes will be made to address all four points and these changes will be made prior to the regulations being made. I refer back to my previous comments on this matter.
Three of the four merits points have been reported on because we consider them to be of political or legal importance, or because they give rise to issues of policy likely to be of interest to the Senedd. We requested Government responses to these three points. Two of these three points highlight some issues in the preamble to the regulations, where we believe greater clarity is required to understand how the Welsh Government has the power to make these regulations and how they must be scrutinised.
Minister, again you will be correcting these matters before the regulations are made. As a committee, we have previously asked questions about the Welsh Government making changes to subordinate legislation after the Senedd has approved it and before it is formally made. In light of these responses, we may revisit the matter again soon. But I would ask the Minister, in your closing remarks, whether you're able to explain each of the changes that you are proposing to make to this instrument before signing it. And if not in your closing remarks, we would be grateful if you could write to the committee in order to outline what those changes are.
Our final merits point asks the Welsh Government to confirm whether or not it consulted on the regulations. The Minister told us that targeted stakeholder communication was undertaken on a Great Britain-wide basis, including during regular stakeholder meetings, and that this was, and I quote, 'the most appropriate form of engagement'.
We also noted that information cited in the explanatory memorandum accompanying the regulations has not been easily located. The Minister has confirmed that the explanatory memorandum has now also been updated so that the information it points to is more easily accessible.
I'm grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I fully understand theGovernment’s motive here in terms of full cost recovery. I absolutely get that, and I understand the rationale for it. But the reality is, of course, that this is going to hit a number of businesses, predominantly in rural communities—food business operators, et cetera—at a very difficult time, where many of these businesses are already struggling because of inflation being through the roof and because of input costs being at an all-time high.
And they're not insignificant increases, are they? We're looking at an average of a 41 per cent increase when it comes to animal by-products; an average of 53 per cent on the current fees for salmonella controls; 21 per cent for poultry health; 65 per cent for breeding controls. They're significant increases. You've said over two years; actually, it's over 12 months, isn’t it, in reality. I know that there are two dates that you have. One is more or less next week, and the other one is 12 months down the line. So, it’s effectively over one year that they will have to accommodate these additional costs.
So, my question to you, Minister, is: what consideration have you given to more gradually tapering the introduction? Because you come here with statements saying how you want to support some of these sectors to develop and grow, and rightly so, and then you hit them with this sudden increase in fees, which—whether we like it or not—is going to have an impact. So, will you please consider a more gradual transition, so that at least these sectors, many of which are already feeling the pressure, won’t see that pressure added to by these increases in fees? Diolch.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Following the Trade and Animal Welfare Coalition event that I sponsored last week in the Senedd, I'm really concerned about the welfare of animals going through border posts—unaccounted for, often hidden. It would be good to see more checks, including checking for microchipping. How will the new regulations and extra funds—although I did hear that it's cost recovery—help in terms of protecting the welfare of animals travelling through Wales in border control posts?

I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales to reply.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I am grateful to Members for their comments. If I can start with Alun Davies, on behalf of the LJC committee, I'm grateful for the way that he's reflected the Welsh Government's response, and I'll be very happy to write to the committee outlining the changes we've made, and, obviously, we have updated the explanatory memorandum, as he referred to.
In relation to Llyr Huws Gruffydd's question, I think it would be better if these fees were raised or not raised or an annual basis, rather than having this big hit. As I explained in my opening remarks, the fees haven't been uplifted for five years, and so the gap between the costs and the income have been at the taxpayer's burden. Of course, the longer we leave it before raising the fees, the more the gap will increase. APHA are spreading the increases over two years, except for border control posts, but, as I say, we don't have those in Wales at the current time. But that is to give customers time to uplift their charges and make their own customers aware of the impending increase.
In relation to Carolyn Thomas's points, as I said, costs recouped from charging offset the amount that APHA charges the Welsh Government for services provided on our behalf, and if we didn't recoup those costs via charging the Welsh Government would then be liable to meet those costs.
So, in summary, the approval of this motion will give certainty for businesses. It will maintain the high level of protection given to human health and the high standard of food and feed consumers expect from both domestically produced and imported products. I therefore urge you to approve the draft regulations.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we will defer the vote until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Legislative Consent Motion on the Procurement Bill

Item 8 is next, that's the legislative consent motion on the Procurement Bill. I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to move the motion. Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM8310 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Procurement Bill relating to debarment investigations, national security debarments, exclusions and other technical amendments, in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion. Over £8 billion is being spent on public procurement each year in Wales. Improving the way we procure can drive innovation and resilience and deliver benefits across Wales by supporting our local economy and saving the taxpayer money. I would like to remind Members that a notable benefit of joining the Procurement Bill is the certainty, the consistency and the continuity that this will realise for Welsh contracting authorities, as well as ensuring that our Welsh suppliers who conduct businesses across the borders can do so without interruption or additional costs. This is particularly important as Brexit, the pandemic, and now the current economic crisis, have left our Welsh businesses crying out for stability and certainty.
The Procurement Bill has already been debated and voted upon in the Senedd on 28 March. Members agreed to the core procurement provisions of the Bill due to the benefits it will bring to suppliers, buyers and, ultimately, Welsh taxpayers. Members did not agree to the provisions of the Bill that relate to international agreements, as they present a threat to our constitutional principles and devolution settlement. This motion deals with the Government amendments that were tabled and agreed at Report Stage in the House of Commons on 13 June. Many of the amendments are technical in nature, however some are more complex, particularly those that relate to debarment and national security.
The more complex amendments in memorandum No. 6 include those on debarment. An effective debarment regime is needed to ensure that public contracts are not awarded to unsuitable suppliers. For example, we would not want public contracts being awarded to suppliers who have been convicted of offences such as corporate manslaughter, terrorism or modern slavery. For a debarment regime to work effectively, there needs to be one debarment list for the UK. It is important that all contracting authorities have one register detailing suppliers who have committed such offences so that they can be excluded from tendering opportunities.
These amendments correct an issue identified in the Bill concerning debarment. They ensure that, regardless of which Minister carries out a debarment investigation, the investigation will have an impact on all contracting authorities in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. For example, if a supplier is added to the debarment list under a mandatory exclusion ground, all contracting authorities must disregard any competitive tender from that supplier. These amendments will therefore ensure that there is a joined-up debarment regime.
There is also an amendment to add a new mandatory exclusion ground that will allow a Minister of the Crown to put a supplier on the debarment list on a mandatory exclusion basis for national security reasons, but only for specific types of defined works, services or goods. This would follow a debarment investigation carried out by an appropriate authority, which could include Welsh Ministers. The amendment will remove discretion from contracting authorities regarding exclusions where a supplier poses a threat to national security for particular contracts, thereby reducing the risk of a supplier being allowed to participate in specific procurements when they should not be.
I remain grateful for the diligence and the support of the various Senedd committees for their scrutiny of the memoranda and the Bill. I also thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their report laid in the Senedd yesterday.
In terms of recommendation 1 of that report, as I said earlier, there were a lot of technical amendments in memorandum 6. The main amendments relate to debarment, which were included in memorandum 5 as clauses 59 to 65 of the Bill, which changed to clauses 59 to 66 in memorandum 6.
The need for these amendments was identified as a result of the amendments on national security, which highlighted concerns and corrected an issue regarding the debarment regime. Therefore, although we asked for consent on 28 March, those clauses needed to be amended to ensure the debarment regime works effectively operationally. They are consistent with the previous memoranda to ensure that there is an effective debarment regime. Furthermore, now that these amendments have been identified, along with the others in memorandum 6, these areas of the Bill will fully align with the Welsh Ministers’ policy.
With regard to recommendation 2 of the committee’s report, officials and Ministers had numerous discussions with the UK Government prior to the debate on 28 March regarding the issues in motion 2. Due to the difference in viewpoints in these areas, we have not had any further dialogue with the UK Government and we will instead take forward our own regulations in these areas through the Senedd, since we retain powers in the Bill. We will follow the model we used under the Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill to take forward our statutory instrument, and I will respond to the committee’s report in full soon.
I hope Members will agree that these amendments will strengthen the Procurement Bill, a Bill that will make public procurement more accessible to businesses, including our small and medium-sized enterprises, will deliver greater value for money for Welsh taxpayers and will maximise opportunities to deliver social, environmental, economic and cultural outcomes for Wales, and that is why I've recommended consent to these amendments in memorandum No. 6.

Chair of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee to contribute now. Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this debate as Chair of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, or PAPAC, and I’ll stick to the acronym from this point on. The Business Committee agreed that the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, or LJC, and PAPAC should report on legislative consent memorandum No. 1 by 6 October 2022. On 11 July 2022, the Minister laid before the Senedd a supplementary legislative consent memorandum, or LCM No. 2, which was tabled on 27 June 2022. We reported on LCMs 1 and 2 on 22 November 2022. We worked closely with the LJC committee on scrutinising these LCMs and wrote jointly to the Minister for Finance and Local Government. We invited Members of the LJC committee to attend our evidence session with the Minister in September last year. We also undertook a consultation exercise and received valuable information from the Welsh Local Government Association—WLGA—Caerphilly County Borough Council and Community Housing Cymru. I thank those organisations for submitting evidence.
Since then, supplementary LCMs relating to this Bill were laid on 6 December 2022, 19 December 2022 and 7 February 2023. Each time a supplementary LCM was laid, our deadline for reporting was extended. Finally, the Business Committee agreed that the LJC committee and PAPAC should report on supplementary memorandums 3, 4, and 5 by 23 March 2023. Unfortunately, PAPAC had only one meeting scheduled within that time frame. We’re disappointed at the short time frame provided to consider and report on the supplementary LCMs, as this provided no opportunity for us to raise concerns with the Minister prior to our reporting, or to consider them in sufficient detail. We had highlighted serious concerns in our reporton LCMs 1 and 2 about the limited opportunities for detailed scrutiny, and we repeated these in our report on supplementary LCMs 4, 5 and 6. We concur with the LJC committee and disagree with the Minister's suggestion that the process is equal to that of the detailed legislative scrutiny of a Senedd Bill.
We made six recommendations in our reports on supplementary LCMs 1 and 2 and LCMs 3, 4 and 5, and our report on supplementary LCMs 4, 5 and 6 raised several further issues. We were concerned about whether an amendment to clause 123, commencement, achieves the Minister's policy intent. It is unclear whether an assessment of the potential financial implications of not giving consent to a Minister of the Crown to commence provisions in the Bill has been undertaken, and what the financial implications would be for the Welsh Government, or the wider public sector in Wales, of not providing consent. The financial implications of a possible subsequent removal of provisions in relation to Welsh contracting authorities from the Bill are similarly unclear, as are any steps the Welsh Government may be required to take to introduce its own legislation to replace them. We note that if Wales does not give consent to the UK Government to commence the Bill's provisions in relation to Welsh contracting authorities, and Wales is carved out from the Act, the financial implications will be greater than currently provided for in the financial assessment, both in relation to the lost opportunity cost involved in developing the present Bill, and the additional cost of any alternative Welsh legislation.
We recommend that the Minister gives further consideration to the potential financial implications of not giving consent to commence provisions in the Bill, given the insufficient detail in the financial section of memorandum No. 5. We're also concerned that the level of detail in memorandum No. 5 is lacking as to the effect of amendments made to the Bill. Our report on LCMs 1 and 2 noted that memorandum No. 2 included references that amendments are minor and provide greater clarity. We believe this is a simplistic summary of the amendments, as some summaries within memorandum No. 5 do not set out how and why the new memorandum differs from the previous memorandum. We support the conclusion of the LJC committee that emphasises to the Minister and all Welsh Ministers the importance of providing sufficient detail to Members of the Senedd within legislative consent memoranda, especially where timescales for Senedd scrutiny are compressed.
Whilst the committee did not oppose these legislative consent memoranda, Mabon ap Gwynfor MS wished to record his view that he is opposed to the legislative consent memoranda in relation to this Bill. The committee will continue to pursue these issues with the Welsh Government. Diolch yn fawr.

Alun Davies now, to speak on behalf of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

Alun Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The committee considered memorandum No. 6 at our meeting yesterday and laid our report immediately afterwards. We drew three conclusions and made four recommendations. We agree with the Welsh Government's assessment that the provisions referred to in memorandum No. 6 fall within the purpose within the legislative competence of the Senedd, as described in Standing Order 29, and as a result require the Senedd's consent. We note the Minister's comments that all the amendments referred to in memorandum No. 6 relate to the provisions set out in the previous five memoranda. However, we would have preferred to see more explanation of the relationship between these amendments and the provisions referred to in those memoranda.
The Minister has, I think, described some of these matters in her opening remarks, and described how our two reports on the five previous memoranda informed the debate on two legislative consent motions on 28 March. The Senedd rejected the second motion, and we would have expected to see an explicit statement in memorandum No. 6 about whether the amendments it details relate in any way to the provisions included in that second motion.
We have therefore recommended that the Minister should outline in today's debate how the provisions included in memorandum No. 6 relate to provisions in previous memoranda, and how they also relate to the outcome of the Senedd debate on the previous two consent motions. We also recommended that the Minister should outline in today's debate what action she has taken to resolve the matters for which the Senedd did not provide its consent as set out in motion 2 of the legislative consent debate held on 28 March.
I welcome the Minister’s contribution in her opening remarks on these points, but I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm and address these points in her closing remarks. I wasn't entirely clear from the point she made in her opening remarks whether she was able to fully outline the resolution of those matters.
We also made further recommendation asking the Minister to address a number of points in writing. These points include the explaining of implications for the procurement regime in Wales of the Senedd not consenting to motion 2 on 28 March, and what action the Minister proposes to take to address her outstanding areas of concern. We also drew two conclusions that commented, in general terms, about the importance of memoranda containing accessible and detailed information to enable Members of the Senedd to reach an informed view when considering legislative consent motions.
I think, in conclusion, Minister, it may be useful if you were able to set out in writing some of these matters. I know you did seek to address them in your opening remarks, but, certainly, I would be grateful—and perhaps, Presiding Officer, it's just me that needs this clarity—if we could have the clarity of an explanation in writing so that all Members are informed. And if that explanation could be sent to all Members, then we would be grateful to you for that.

Peter Fox AS: Can I thank the Welsh Government and the Minister for bringing forward today's LCM on the Procurement Bill, which we, the Conservative group, will be supporting? As we know, the purpose of the Bill is to introduce revised legislation to the processes and procedures governing public procurement. Along with this, the Bill interacts with other legislation, such as the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023 and the Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Act 2023, which will be repealed the Procurement Bill.
This Bill will speed up and simplify public procurement processes, ensure value for money, and also create greater opportunities for small businesses and social enterprises to innovate public service delivery. As we've already heard, LCMs have been before this Senedd on numerous occasions, partly due to changes to the Bill as it's made its way through the Houses of Parliament in relation to national security, key performance indicators and rights to suppliers.
In addition to this, the Senedd has already discussed the merits of the LCM on numerous occasions, as we've heard. It's welcome that the Welsh Government have worked with the Cabinet Office to ensure this Bill is a success, and I welcome the Minister's comments that the provisions in this Bill will provide a simplified, transparent procurement regime in Wales. And finally, I welcome the Welsh Government recommending the Senedd gives consent to this LCM. Thank you.

Adam Price AC: In accordance with the stance that the Plaid Cymru group has taken in this Senedd, we do oppose this legislative consent motion as a matter of principle, because we agree with the Counsel General's analysis. There is an aspect of this that is destructive towards devolution from the direction of the Westminster Government. That is reflected in the wave of LCMs that are coming in our direction. We have seen recent figures—almost 90 LCMs in this Senedd already, as compared to around 48 in the whole of the previous Senedd. So, the direction is clear.
And in relation to the Procurement Bill, it's not a single LCM, but a series of supplementary LCMs, which does make the situation very complex. There's a lack of time, as Mark Isherwood referred to. We have to pay tribute to the LJC committee, who have made a heroic, Stakhanovite effort to produce a report overnight. But I doubt every Member will have had an opportunity to read that report in the time—[Interruption.] Yes, of course.

Alun Davies AC: I welcome you to the committee that you just referred to. I disagree with the blanket policy of opposing every LCM, but do you agree that this doesn't reflect the problems of the Welsh Government, rather it reflects that Westminster is developing policy whilst legislation is going through that Parliament, and Members of Parliament in Westminster aren't having an opportunity to consider this legislation in the same way that we're not able to consider it either? The Welsh Government is in the middle in all of this, trying to ensure that the constitution functions, whilst the Westminster Government doesn't care a great deal about them, or us, or the constitution itself.

Adam Price AC: I would certainly agree that it does reflect the continuous state of crisis that Westminster has been in for some years. The fact that so many Government amendments have been introduced at the very end of this process is a reflection of that.
But the impact in terms of this process is that there's a lack of time, there's a lack of capacity for us to scrutinise from afar. Our view, of course, as a party, is clear, but it would be a good idea for us to see a general review of how this process of joint scrutiny, or however you like to describe it, does operate. There is an element that edges upon being technocratic in the sense that there are a number of discussions—and I know that a lot of work has been done by the Welsh Government in trying to amend and improve the legislation in terms of its impact on Wales, and amendments have been proposed by Welsh Government that have been accepted and incorporated—but where's the Senedd in that process? Shouldn't we have an opportunity, for example—? If the Welsh Government is to propose amendments to a Westminster Bill, shouldn't there be some room in the process for us—everyone in the Senedd, not just Government—to contribute ideas in terms of what those amendments could look like?
So, we disagree on a point of principle, but certainly, the process we have at the moment is less than ideal in terms of doing our scrutiny work in the Senedd. There's no time; there's no transparency. As the committee made the point in its report, it's very difficult for us to understand exactly what we're dealing with. But, generally speaking, we do oppose, once again, on these benches.

The Minister for Finance and Local Government now to reply—Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much to all colleagues for their comments this afternoon. I think we've had probably a wider debate than memorandum No. 6 entirely, but I think it has been useful. I would just remind colleagues that it was really the strong preference of our contracting authorities across Wales and also our suppliers in Wales that there was a single Bill across England, Wales and Northern Ireland, given the impact of cross-border procurement. But we won't run those discussions again; we had that debate in March.
In response to the acting Chair of the LJC committee, I'd just like to refer to some of those questions that he asked. Certainly, given the timescales involved, I definitely will ask our officials to provide some detailed information on how the provisions included in memorandum No. 6 relate to the provisions in the previous memoranda. I did try in my opening remarks to address some of that in terms of how the amendments relate to the outcome of the debate that we had here in the Senedd on 28 March. But, just to clarify, motion 2, which we debated at that point, related only to the trade elements of the Procurement Bill. So, they have no impact at all on the core procurement aspects of the Bill. And, as we have concurrent powers in these areas, we'll take forward our own regulations through this Senedd in that space.
The Secretary of State will only have limited regulation-making powers in Wales in devolved areas, and I will provide full, detailed information in my written response. However, Members should be assured that we have taken equivalent powers in every appropriate area of the Bill apart from those that relate to international trade, which is a matter that this Senedd has already voted on and disagreed with the UK Government on. The only outstanding matters of concern are those that relate to international trade, and we'll be taking forward our own regulations through the Senedd.
I would also just add that, prior to the debate on 28 March, we did have a lot of discussion at ministerial and official level with the UK Government regarding the issues in motion 2. Given the fact that there are fundamental differences of opinion, we haven't had further discussionswith them, but I'm more than happy to set out all of this in more detail in a written response to the committee. So, I thank the LJC committee and I also thank the Chair of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee for his comments this afternoon that I think again went slightly wider than the actual detail of this particular memorandum.
And just to confirm, Llywydd, that I always aim to be as engaged and as accessible possible. We did offer both committees an oral briefing, a technical briefing, on this particular memorandum, but the preference on this occasion was a written briefing. But, in future, if there are requests for technical oral briefings, obviously we're very happy to do that, and I'm more than happy to provide further evidence to committee, if that would be helpful as well.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection, therefore we'll defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Debate: The First Supplementary Budget 2023-24

Item 9 is next, the debate on the first supplementary budget 2023-24. I call on the Minister for finance to move the motion—Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM8298 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 20.30, approves the First Supplementary Budget for the financial year 2023-24 laid in the Table Office on Tuesday 13 June 2023.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The first supplementary budget of 2023-24 is the first opportunity to amend budgetary plans for the current financial year. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Finance Committee for its consideration of this budget and the publication of its report. I will provide a detailed response to its nine recommendations in due course.
As is usual for supplementary budgets, the changes include small adjustments to the overall level of resources available to Wales, reflecting transfers and consequentials arising from changes in UK Government departmental spending. This budget also regularises approved transfers within and between ministerial portfolios. As last year, there are also changes in this first supplementary budget relating to a technical reclassification of budgets, to reflect the implementation of the international financial reporting standard, or IFRS 16, as it's commonly known, on leases. The changes relating to IFRS 16 do not affect the spending power of the Welsh Government but simply reflect existing spending plans on leasing arrangements more appropriately as a capital investment.
In addition, this budget sees £28 million being drawn down from the Wales reserve and allocated to the education and the Welsh language main expenditure group, to support the local authorities with the costs of the 2023 pay award for teachers that fall in 2023-24, and also to ensure pay parity for further education institutions.
Although it is limited in scope, the supplementary budget nevertheless represents an important part of the budget and scrutiny system. In-year supplementary budgets build on the plans set out in the draft and final budget, with a greater focus on the pressures and the opportunities that arise in-year. I will table a second supplementary budget later in this financial year. Any further allocations from reserves this year will be regularised in the second supplementary budget, which will also include details of any further consequentials to Wales, positive or negative, that arise as a result of changes to UK Government departmental spending. I would like to thank the Finance Committee once again for its scrutiny of this supplementary budget, and I ask Members to support it.

Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Llywydd. It's a pleasure to speak in this debate today on behalf of the Finance Committee. The committee scrutinised the first supplementary budget on 21 June, and I thank the Minister for her attendance. However, we note that only 15 minutes have been allocated for this debate today, which is slightly disappointing, because we believe that additional time should be allocated for detailed scrutiny of these financial plans, and I'll be writing to the Business Committee accordingly.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Before talking about our report in great detail, we note that the economic context remains highly challenging, with persistently high inflation and interest rates putting even greater pressure on the public purse and squeezing household income. On the whole, the committee is assured by the approach taken by the Minister in mitigating these pressures within the supplementary budget. In particular, we applaud the Minister for making it clear to her ministerial colleagues that they will need to manage their departmental spending within the envelope allocated to them and to not expect additional funding.
We also consider the Minister's use of reserves to be essential in covering the costs of the pay award for teachers in schools and further education, whilst sustaining levels of public spending elsewhere. However, the committee is particularly concerned by the impact of inflationary pressures on the Welsh Government's capital programme. We have therefore recommended that the Minister provides quarterly reports to explain the impact of inflationary pressures and interest rate increases on planned capital projects and the targets expected from the Welsh Government’s investment in this area.
Turning now to other areas, Llywydd, the committee very much welcomes the incremental improvements in the relationship between the Welsh Government and the Treasury. However, there is still a long way to go before we have robust arrangements that are underpinned by mutual respect and consent. In particular, the committee regrets that details regarding the implications for Wales of major funding decisions in England, such as the NHS pay award, are currently unknown, and agree with the Minister that she is budgeting in the dark until the details of such decisions are shared. We believe that this lack of clarity is detrimental to the Welsh Government’s budgetary position and makes prudential fiscal management extremely challenging.
This is why we have called on the Minister to notify the committee about the impacts of funding decisions relating to pay awards in England as part of the next supplementary budget, including details of whether they will be funded by existing funds or through reserves. Furthermore, we fully support the Minister’s continued efforts to press the Treasury for earlier and better engagement regarding significant funding announcements, given the clarity that it would bring to the Welsh Government in terms of its funding position. Achieving this would hopefully avoid situations like the one we face again this year of the Welsh Government’s draft budget proposals being pushed late, which results in less time for detailed scrutiny in the Senedd. We also believe that the Welsh Government could do more to ensure that it provides the utmost transparency, including publishing details of consequentials it receives and providing a fuller picture of the balance held in the Wales reserve, including information on whether planned draw-downs have taken place or not.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Lastly, and as mentioned earlier in my contribution, the committee welcomes the small steps taken in recent months to improve the Welsh Government's relationship with the Treasury. These are not insignificant developments, and we acknowledge the Minister’s efforts. However, as the saying goes, strive for better not for good—we would like to see this position improved further. The resilience of our fiscal structures is highly dependent on smooth relations between central and devolved Governments, and the committee welcomes these positive developments. Thank you very much.

Peter Fox AS: Could I thank the Welsh Government for today's debate on this first supplementary budget? In today's debate, I will be contributing as the Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson for finance, and we'll be voting against.
I appreciate that this year's original budget was set in challenging times, to say the least, with the backdrop of the horrific war in Ukraine, along with the cost-of-living challenges, and significant residual pressures from COVID. Nevertheless, it's almost certain that the budget did not go far enough in addressing the many challenges currently facing the people of Wales, especially in areas like health and social care. This supplementary budget enables the Government to transact the various accounting requirements, such as those associated, as we've heard, with IFRS 16, which does add a level of complexity to understanding the budget, and it also deals with other additionalities that have come forward since setting the budget in March. And I have to say, as I said, that those IFRS 16 calculations do make things confusing. Of those additional moneys that have come, I welcome the £99.9 million of additional consequentials from the UK Government, and the additional non-Barnett capital of £58 million for city and growth deals, and we support the requirement for additional moneys to be used for teachers' pay.
That said, the supplementary budget also allows the Government to reconsider its original budget position and how it responds to further or increasing pressures since the budget was approved, by moving resources between priority areas. Firstly, I acknowledge that there has been some additionality provided to health and social care, but I was disappointed that more couldn't have been done, especially at a time when Wales continues to lag behind England when it comes to NHS waiting lists, with over 30,000 waiting over two years in Wales, compared to virtually zero in England. I would have hoped to have seen more done in the supplementary budget to help address these issues via any means available. We have all agreed here, and many times today, how important our NHS is, and every stop should be pulled out to make sure that the NHS here doesn't fall over.
Secondly, Minister, I'm sure you'll remember our Welsh Conservatives debate on additional learning needs last month, in which the Welsh Government voted for our calls to undertake an urgent review of the implementation of ALN reforms, and to provide additional financial support to Welsh schools to ensure that those with ALN are supported. Nevertheless, Minister, in the supplementary budget, I see that funding of over £1 million has been moved from additional learning needs obviously to somewhere else in the main expenditure group, and I just wondered whether you could explain why this has been cut from ALN and what this money will now be spent on within that department.
Thirdly, Minister, whilst this is not an area in the supplementary budget, it's an area that I've raised with you many times, and that is council reserves. As you'll be well aware, councils are currently in possession of probably near £2.75 billion in reserves, and yes, they will draw down on that to deal with some of their growing pressures. However, in these difficult times, is it right that these levels of reserves that equate to over 10 per cent of the Welsh Government's budget should be held as they are? I'd hope that work is going on to give serious review to this situation so that additional resources can be mobilised to priority areas.
Finally, on these benches, we do welcome the waiver of draw-down limits from the Wales reserve for the current financial year, and we do call on the Welsh Government to make more use of its borrowing powers. I hope the Government is assessing how it can use these powers further in the future. Thank you.

Delyth Jewell AC: I wanted to welcome the money that's been drawn down from the Wales reserve to back the new pay award for teachers—the point that was just being made. Teachers have endured years of squeezed wages. I think it's entirely appropriate that these funds are used to provide that hard-working but so often undervalued part of our workforce—our teachers—with that much-deserved pay rise. You'll recall that, at the start of the year, Plaid Cymru had proposed a fully-costed package of support for public sector workers, including teachers, through progressive use of Welsh tax rates and draw-downs from the Wales reserve. Now, initially, of course, the Government had been reluctant about that measure, but it is heartening that the Welsh Government has now acknowledged the merits of that plan.
The Wales reserve is a useful tool for managing these urgent public spending needs. I think that it does need to be contextualised against the constraints that are imposed by the UK Treasury on the Welsh Government's ability to access those funds. It's important to emphasise that the reserve is fully comprised of funds allocated to and raised by the Welsh Government. It speaks volumes, I'm afraid, about the limitations of Welsh devolution's fiscal firepower that there are such strict conditions on the elected Government of Wales's ability to access its own funds.
Now, I understand that the Welsh Government was able to secure relaxation on the draw-down limits for the current financial year on the grounds of exceptional circumstances, namely the turmoil caused by the catastrophic mismanagement of the UK economy by the UK Government. Indeed, the Conservatives' woeful track record, the notion of that set against that fact, the fact that the UK Government is setting terms about financial prudence on Wales—that just seems risible. But, beyond that, the effectiveness of devolved policy making is surely dependent on dispensing with these fiscal constraints on a permanent basis. I'm aware that the Minister was intending to raise this issue recently in a meeting with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. I'd be very grateful if the Minister could divulge the outcome of that meeting please, and whether there's been any movement on the part of the UK Treasury to accommodate a more flexible set of arrangements for accessing the Welsh reserve on a permanent basis.
And finally, Llywydd, to turn to other aspects of the budget, I note that £4.4 million has been transferred from the apprenticeships budget expenditure line in the economy MEG to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales's programme expenditure BEL for degree apprenticeships. Could the Minister please state whether that indicates a shift in the Welsh Government's outlook on the funding of apprenticeships, especially in relation to those that are not provided by higher education institutions? Diolch.

Mike Hedges AC: This is the first supplementary budget, and, as usual, it only shows minor changes. The largest changes are those required for the implementation of a new accounting standard for leases, which I understanddo not affect the ability to spend, which is the important thing. According to the explanatory note, implementing IFRS 16
'does not affect existing spending power'
and the cost of leasing for organisations will be the same. So, it’s basically an accountancy action.
The Welsh Government has got a net increase in its fiscal resources baseline of £27.7 million, as reported. Can I urge, beseech, beg the Welsh Government to use this money to continue funding meals for children who quality for free school meals during the summer holiday? I can think of no better way of spending money.
The amount to repay principal borrowing has reduced by £2.2 million, and planned capital borrowing remains at £150 million, the maximum annual limit within the fiscal framework. Lord Bourne said in a Finance Committee meeting recently, discussing the Silk report 10 years on, that the Welsh Government were not using their full current borrowing limit. Can I urge the Government to make it explicit that it is borrowing to its capital limit?
I welcome the supplementary budget states the following reserves are currently held—fiscal resources, £60.1 million, an increase of £47.1 million since the final budget, and non-fiscal resources of £662 million, an increase of £119.4 million since the final budget. But the ability of every council in Wales to add and take money out of reserve as and when it likes is not allowed for the Welsh Government. If Blaenau Gwent council or Swansea council can add or take out of reserve, as they will, why can’t the Welsh Government do exactly the same thing? It makes no sense apart from the need or desire or demand of central control by the Treasury.
I welcome that, in your response to the Finance Committee recommendations on updates on funding and the Wales reserve, the Welsh Government’s provided a table in the explanatory notes to show these changes. I hope the Minister provides the information in the next supplementary budget to show the impact of pay awards on the Welsh Government’s funding position, and to confirm whether such costs will need to be funded through existing budgets, Barnett consequentials or through reserves. I welcome the Welsh Government continuing our over-allocated capital budget, but note that the over-allocation of capital is reduced by £37.5 million. Capital schemes often slip. In fact, if you had 100 schemes, I’d be surprised if 50 of them didn’t slip at some stage. Also, you can stretch them, so that you can complete them in the next financial year. So, over-commitment is better than under-commitment or absolute commitment, because you can actually spend more money that way. So, I welcome the Welsh Government doing that, and I hope, understand, believe that they are actually managing that to see exactly where they are.
I welcome the city and growth deals, and this is a way forward. I believe in the four Wales parts—the Cardiff city region, the Swansea bay region, the mid Wales region and the north Wales region. I think that they are all separate, and I actually look for more money to be spent to try and ensure that we have fairness in Wales between the different regions so that all of Wales benefits from this spending.

The Minister for Finance and Local Government to reply to the debate.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you to all colleagues for their contributions in the debate this afternoon. I'll just clarify the funding that has changed in respect of the supplementary budget. We have an increase of £128 million of revenue, and, as we've heard, £28 million of that relates to draw-down from the Wales reserve to support local authorities with the payment of the new award for teachers in schools and FE, indeed, for the part of the school year that falls in this financial year. So, I think that is obviously an important demonstration of our commitment to teachers.
There were also £44 million of consequentials in the spring budget and the main estimates combined, so they are currently unallocated. And then £56 million was the net in terms of transfers to and from other Government departments. An example there that you'll see in the documentation would be the health surcharge, which relates to supporting people who are asylum seekers with their health, so that money essentially flows from the UK Government onwards; it's not money that we allocate, if you like, as part of our budget process. And we have money that flows the other way, as well—so, Welsh Government provides funding to the UK Government to pay for some of the work that the Office for Budgetary Responsibility does in terms of helping us with our tax forecasts.
The increase of £103 million in capital comprises £58 million ring-fenced for the city and growth deals, and we've heard some comments on that this afternoon, and £8 million, which is, again, that net in terms of transfers to and from other Government departments, and £37 million of consequentials from the UK spring budget and main estimates. I've been grateful to colleagues for their recognition of the difficult situation we find ourselves in in terms of our capital funding. This year, we do intend to draw down or to borrow the maximum that we're able to borrow, and, indeed, we've also over-programmed our capital budget by £100 million as well, to try and address that kind of slippage issue that Mike Hedges was describing to make sure we maximise the use of our capital funding. But all of that, obviously, comes with a certain level of risk, and I know that the Finance Committee is very interested in the impact that inflation is having on our plans as well. I was able to describe some of that in our evidence session, but I know individual Ministers will probably have opportunities to talk to their individual committees about the changes in their plans as a result of inflation, as well.
I'm really pleased to see the recognition of the ways in which we're trying to improve the relations with the Treasury at the moment. The full draw-down from the Wales reserve this year, I think, is a helpful step forward and a pragmatic approach by the current Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and he was able to agree some minor changes to the year-end process last year, which, again, is to be welcomed. But it doesn't come close, really, to the kind of bit fiscal flexibilities that we need, and it certainly doesn't, I think, excuse the UK Government for not being able to tell us, even at this point, how they'll be paying for the NHS pay award and what that means for us.I think the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee has been a useful forum for those discussions. It certainly has improved relations, but I think we would all agree that there's a lot more to be done to fully improve that, and I'm very grateful to the Finance Committee for its efforts to support us in seeking better engagement.
Just on the specific question relating to ALN, the net effect on the ALN budget is to increase it to £25.6 million. That's up from £4.5 million in the previous financial year, so I hope that does demonstrate the priority that we put on supporting children and young people with additional learning needs. If there were other questions of a more detailed nature, I'd be happy to write to colleagues, just recognising that we are out of time, or over time, I should say. Diolch, Llywydd.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore we'll defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

10. Debate: Education’s Links with Employers

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Heledd Fychan.

The next item, therefore, is the debate on education's links with employers. I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to move the motion—Jeremy Miles.

Motion NDM8309 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the report from Hefin David MS 'Transitions to Employment: A Report for the Welsh Government'.
2. Recognises the role of education in delivering the skills and training that learners in Wales need to address the demands of the Welsh economy.

Motion moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to open by thanking Hefin David, whose report, 'Transitions to Employment', has helped inform this debate today, and I was very pleased to be able to commission it. The report will extend the evidence base as we continue to develop our education and skills policy in the future. May I, with his permission, give my thanks as well to those who have contributed to the report in discussion, and to Alex Still and Laura Green, who I know have been indispensable in preparing the report?
The report has identified a number of themes that are of key importance when we look at how we deliver education in Wales, what we deliver and how well it prepares learners to move on to the next stage, whatever that may be. The importance of collaboration in delivering education and training is fundamental. Everyone has a part to play in ensuring that our children and young people leave education equipped to fully participate in society. That includes, of course, schools and colleges, training providers, employers and, with the right support, learners themselves.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Jeremy Miles AC: Estyn has highlighted the need for robust partnership working between schools, colleges and other partners in order to give the greatest benefits to learners. There are good examples of schools and other providers working together to deliver for learners, and I strongly encourage them to continue this and to share that best practice, which is so essential, particularly where it can support some of our more disadvantaged learners. For example, I very much welcome schools and colleges working together to provide work-based learning opportunities and training to their learners, although I do absolutely recognise there is much more work that we can do in that particular area.
As part of this Government's commitment to long-term education reform, I've established the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, which will, as Members know, I think, become operational next April. Hefin recognises the important role that the commission will have in reducing what I think he describes as the fragmentation of the sector. Having all aspects of tertiary education under a single body working within a single, strategic framework that focuses very much on learners' needs will foster and support greater collaboration and cohesion, and I hope and expect it will provide further opportunities to build those clear pathways that the report speaks about for learners into different areas of educational provision, or indeed into employment.
Turning to what we deliver, the new curriculum, of course, is designed as a national framework for learners up to the age of 16, providing schools with that important element of flexibility to meet the specific needs of their specific learners. As Members will know, I think, the six areas of learning and experience are organised around 'what matters' statements, and these sum up the most important knowledge, skills and experiences that we all want for 16-year-old learners in Wales to have. I'm committed to developing a continuum of learning after 16 that builds on the key purposes and learner experiences in the new curriculum, and I think it's through greater collaboration between our education and training providers, and with the support of the commission, is how we will ensure that the curriculum offer beyond 16 for learners aged 16 to 19 is planned, is sustainable and, crucially, in the context of Hefin David's report, meets the future needs both of learners and of employers.
My officials work closely with Qualifications Wales to ensure that the qualifications that are available to learners at 16 reflect the Curriculum for Wales and, crucially, help enable successful progression on to employment or to training or to further education. This includes, for example, the introduction of new pre- and post-16 vocational qualifications that give a practical-based engineering qualification for 14 to 16-year-olds, and a new suite of post-16 motor vehicle qualifications, with up-to-date content on electrical vehicle management.
Last summer, Members will recall that I asked Sharron Lusher, who is the former principal of Pembrokeshire College, to lead an independent review of vocational qualifications in Wales in line with the co-operation agreement, and that review's work is underpinned by our commitment to consider the expansion of made-for-Wales qualifications, and I'm grateful to Sharron and the rest of the steering group for their hard work, and I'll be giving their report very careful consideration indeed.

Jeremy Miles AC: Finally, I can't emphasise enough how important ensuring that we support our learners to move forward to the next stages of their life is, be that higher education, further education or apprenticeship, or the workplace. Hefin David also refers to Careers Wales throughout his report. Careers Wales, of course, has links with all secondary schools, providing support, advice and guidance on careers to help young people to plan their careers. They have a network, which is constantly evolving, of employers from a broad range of sectors, and they work to bring schools and employers together, and there is a challenge in the report to look at what more we can do in that area.
It's important that learners have more meaningful work experience—indeed, the report suggests this specifically. Careers and job-related experiences are a mandatory element of the new curriculum, and, in planning the curriculum, schools must ensure that all learners have meaningful experiences related to work and careers, and this will enable them to make informed decisions on their career paths.
Hefin David makes a very important recommendation on the provision of support for in-post training for pupils with additional learning needs, and I'm pleased that there will be one legislative framework to support children and young people up to the age of 25 with additional learning needs who are in education or training. I believe this will be a foundation on which we can provide the necessary regime, which is referred to in the report, to assist them on their career path, and we need to build on that foundation.
For some learners, the next step will be higher apprenticeships, or degree apprenticeships, as Hefin acknowledges in his report. We are funding the expansion of degree apprenticeships to priority and growth areas such as modern methods of construction, railways and renewable energy. These sectors support the development of high-quality jobs and more technically skilled jobs. At the moment, the frameworks for construction and rail are being developed with the aim of employing degree apprentices in the rail sector for the first time in January 2024 and construction degree apprentices in September 2024.
The Plaid Cymru amendment only sets out the status quo in terms of degree apprenticeships, so we can support it in that sense. We will consider the recommendations of the report and we acknowledge that there will need to be an evaluation of new funding models and that they will need to be consulted upon.
There are many options that learners can choose as their next steps at 16 and beyond, and I am confident, Dirprwy Lywydd, that we can, through collaboration, ensure that they are as prepared as possible to make that choice and to make the right choice for them. I now invite Members of the Senedd to express their views.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Heledd Fychan to move the amendment tabled in her name.

Amendment 1—Heledd Fychan
Add new point at end of motion:
Believes that the financial burden for degree apprenticeships should not fall on the individual and that all education should be free.

Amendment 1moved.

Heledd Fychan AS: Formally. Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, Minister, and thanks also to Hefin David for his work on this report.

Heledd Fychan AS: We very much welcome the opportunity to speak on this issue, which brings together many things that are crucially important, because, after all, the relationship between education and the workforce is a crucial determinant of the health of the wider economy, and in this respect, the Government has a key role in establishing effective and clearly delineated pathways for employees and employers alike to acquire the skills that they need.
Wales has long suffered from a shortage of skills within its workforce, which has, of course, contributed significantly to the poor performance of the Welsh economy over the past 25 years. As revealed by the 'Business Barometer' review for 2023—a joint collaboration between the Open University and the British Chambers of Commerce—the situation is now critical. A staggering 25 per cent of organisations based in Wales are currently facing skills shortages—the highest level in the UK. Furthermore, 70 per cent of Welsh respondents to the study have claimed that the deficiency of available skills has led to increased workloads on existing staff. And, as we’re reflecting today on the NHS, the current predicament of our NHS workforce clearly illustrates the profound damage that can be incurred by a failure to expand and diversify pools of talent.
Given the urgent need to address this issue and to break the low-wage and low-skills cycle that has had a persistent presence in the Welsh workforce for decades, I am pleased that you have confirmed, Minister, that you will be supporting our amendment in terms of the status quo. But I would like to, of course, raise concerns about the prospect that’s raised here about introducing tuition fees for apprenticeships. We should also consider in this the fact that the Welsh Government pledge to create a 125,000 new apprenticeships by the end of this Senedd term remains almost 100,000 short of its target, with less than three years remaining. And the notion that the pace of this programme could be accelerated by the introduction of tuition fees, especially during a period of acute financial hardship, is something that we would question—something that I’m sure that the Minister has considered carefully as well.
This should also, of course, be contextualised against the fact that recent years have witnessed a drop in the success rate of apprenticeships in Wales from 80.9 per cent in 2018-19 to 66.3 per cent in 2021-22. And the impact has been particularly noticeable amongst the 20-24 age group, which means that fewer young people are acquiring the necessary skills upon entering the workforce. The latest statistics also reveal an increase in uncompleted apprenticeships as result of the individuals in question seeking employment before the end of their course, and this now accounts for approximately 15 per cent of uncompleted apprenticeships.
There has also been a widening of the gap in success rates between learners living in the most deprived areas and the least deprived areas since the pandemic. And surely, this is a clear indication of the impact of cost-of-living pressures on people undertaking apprenticeships. It’s something that I’ve spoken to a number of young people about when it comes to public transport and the cost, or the lack of availability, which has meant that they haven't, perhaps, been able to pursue or complete their apprenticeships. When we spoke to the National Society of Apprentices, the NSoA, about this, they confirmed that the affordability of courses was a key concern for its members at present. And, in this respect, we do agree with the verdict of both NUS and NSoA, who have rejected the premise that loading cost and debt onto young workers is the way to create a more equal, fair and just Wales with fair work at its core.
I'd also like to raise the issue—

Hefin David AC: Will you take an intervention? Just to clarify that, I actually say that on page 22; that actual quote is in the report.

Heledd Fychan AS: Yes, thank you. I have read it, but I cannot reference every page number, I'm afraid, Hefin. But, in terms of—

Hefin David AC: [Inaudible.]—suggest I hadn't said that.

Heledd Fychan AS: Okay, thank you. But we're saying that we have engaged with NSoA and the NUS and would like to support their calls in this area, because obviously one thing in your report is talking about funding models as well.

Heledd Fychan AS: If I may tun to the Welsh language, clearly one of the very important aspects of reaching that target of a million Welsh speakers and for us to develop skills in the workforce in terms of the Welsh language is to ensure and deliver Welsh-medium apprenticeships. And one of the things that we would like to ensure in this regard—. Clearly, one of the recommendations is related to the Welsh language, but I think that it's not just about developing skills, it's about ensuring that these courses are available in one's chosen language, wherever one may be in Wales. I think this is certainly something that the Minister is eager to be solving. I know that when we were on a recent committee visit to Ireland that this is a particular challenge, particularly in terms of areas where the Irish language is to flourish and their hopes in this regard. I think there are international challenges, too, in terms of how we provide these opportunities.
So, those are some comments from me. I hope that you see them as constructive. Clearly, this is a very important report and I look forward to seeing how we deliver additional opportunities for our young people, and apprenticeships.

Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch. [Interruption.] Sorry. Two seconds. I'm sorry about that. I want to start by thanking Dr Hefin David, the Member for Caerphilly, for this report today. I know that producing a report of such importance and quality isn't easy and it's a time-consuming task, however, this hard work has absolutely paid off and I'm so pleased to see that there is a significant focus on this area that needs that much-needed attention: transitions to employment. It's real food for thought and it's a good challenge to the current way of thinking in this field.
It is clear that there are vast concerns, and there have been for years, about a system that can only be epitomised by fragmentation, although I hope now, as the Minister outlined earlier, that there will be more glue to hold all of these strands together with the commission starting their work in April.
Careers education is a statutory responsibility, as you outline in your book, Hefin, of the individual schools and colleges. Changes to the curriculum in Wales making careers and work experience compulsory have the potential to be really transformational in terms of careers education. However, the right structure, as you say, must be in place to deliver it, such as a Wales-wide service, bringing learners, providers and employers together at the academic and vocational level. I thought that was a really important point to just reiterate.
The education sector in Wales currently has no cohesive strategy to ensure that students are given sufficient work experience opportunities, and I welcome the report noting the need to work with stakeholders to create that more joined-up approach that is not restrained by short-term funding, which can only be beneficial to our future economy, as Heledd just said.
In section 2 of the report, I was pleased to read that the tertiary sector felt that there is a need for more understanding of vocational qualification opportunities embedded throughout student life, even as early as primary school, which is something I have called for before and believe in, and have done for a couple of years. It is crucial that we provide information on a variety of pathways for our young people before they develop pre-set ideas of what is or is not available to them or what they can achieve.
Increasing awareness and experience will undoubtedly enhance motivation in their studies too, as I'm sure my own son would be a case in point there. The sooner that these opportunities surrounding the world of work can present themselves in their lives, the better. However, it is vital that the Welsh Government also acknowledge and act upon the overwhelming burden on teachers to make those connections with employers, as Heledd outlined just now. This only serves to reinforce calls for that unified strategy that links all parts of the education and employment sectors.
I was concerned to read that the further education practitioners explained that there is a difficulty in meeting learners prior to the transitions from secondary schools, and seeing that that's not consistently the case, that students are given the opportunity to gain that full range of knowledge of different pathways. So, I was pleased to see recommendation 1, which calls for learners to be provided with an authentic and meaningful experience in the world of work. In section 3, it was troublesome to read that schools felt that the scaling back of Careers Wales and additional admin duties for teachers, as was outlined, meant that they relied on parental or staffing networks for those placement opportunities, which I've seen time and time again. Inevitably, that is great for some, but incredibly limiting for others—normally, the young people who we want to target.
Also, I'm really concerned to hear that Careers Wales have reneged on their past role to provide those health and safety checks. Instead, this has now been put back on our schools, which is a big ask and surely needs to be changed if this Government is truly serious in wanting to have more meaningful and broader work experience opportunities. It was both interesting and pleasing to read about the effectiveness of the UK Government's Skills and Post-16 Education Act 2022, which mandates and allows learners to access a range of employers and education providers. I agree with this, and truly think that it would be effective in Wales too. So, I was happy with your recommendation 4, which calls for the Government to offer that meaningful work experience for 14 to 18-year-olds; along with another commonsense recommendation in No. 5, actually, that work experience placements should be matched as closely as possible to future qualifications and employment for that individual. To expand on this recommendation, I'd also like to see the Government put an emphasis on local job opportunities to support the demand of the local labour market, and I think this could be delivered through regional skills partnerships.
I also want to express a desire for the Government to consider how they may support careers that are non-traditional, in fact, or do not have that set pathway—for example, those children showing key skills, for example, that are not necessarily academic and that would make really good entrepreneurs. You often see children like that in the classroom, and they're often missed and placed in the wrong vocational pathways, so I'd really like to have some work done around that. And all opportunities, of course, as Heledd outlined, should be in any language that is desired by that learner, and there are a range of languages in our society, as we know.
Section 4 illuminates something—I'll be really quick—that I've spoken to countless times, and that's degree apprenticeships. Building on what the Minister said, I welcome the expansion of degree apprenticeships in the field of construction, but a heck of a lot more needs to be done to be in line with England and Scotland. I know it's costly, but what is the cost of not doing it?
And just lastly, if I may, on ALN, it's so important that your focus is on that, and I'm delighted, with someone with such a background on it—[Interruption.] Oh, is your child up there? Oh, hello. That you've got that focus on ALN. I wholeheartedly support the recommendation that we need to review the support for job coaching for the transition for ALN learners into the workplace. It's a really effective intervention, and it would be beneficial for the employer and the employee, and it is so important that those bespoke pathways—and they are all bespoke for each individual learner—are concentrated on and we do more work into—[Interruption.] Sorry, I will. I'm sorry, I could go on forever, but I won't.

No, you will not go on forever. [Laughter.]

Laura Anne Jones AC: We learnt some very interesting things, didn't we, Jayne Bryant, in our school the other day, but I'll talk to the Minister about that separately. I would like to just commend the Member for Caerphilly for your work. This has been long overdue, and I hope that this report goes some way to bringing about positive change for our learners in Wales. Thank you.

And next we have the author of the report, Hefin David.

Hefin David AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's a shame these debates are so curtailed, because I could have listened to Heledd and Laura some more, and I just wanted to say that representatives of Engage to Change from Cardiff University are in the gallery today listening to the debate. I wanted to make that clear.
'Aspiration' is such a politician's word, isn't it—'aspiration'? We say this, we go on tv, we go on Sharp End, we go on Politics Wales: 'aspiration, aspiration, aspiration'. And, actually, 'aspiration' isn't a word that's commonly used by students. What does 'aspiration' mean to them? Well, 'aspiration' means connectivity, it means choice, it means clarity, it means understanding all of those pathways that you can have, and my report, I think, basically says that isn't the case to enough of an extent at the moment. But I've got to say that the Welsh Government is acting on this through the Curriculum for Wales, and, of course, through the creation of the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, which, through my report, I keep getting the acronym wrong—CETRinstead of CTER, but that's just my own problem there. I think the Welsh Government has taken this action, which the Minister's outlined in his speech.

Hefin David AC: And I think access to learners is key. So, on page 4 of the report, for example, the director of the employers' organisation the Confederation of British Industry Wales says that:
'Employer engagement with schools is very, very patchy, and very, very inconsistent.'
And Jeff Protheroe of ColegauCymru says:
'I think at a strategic level there are good relationships between schools and colleges but in terms of being able to open up opportunities to all learners, then there is more work to do.'
And also frustrated tertiary practitioners said some secondary schools could be directing selected learners towards A-levels and, on occasion, limiting opportunities. I was really careful with the extent of the language I used there, but that's certainly the case. And Laura Jones mentioned the Baker clause, which is in the Skills and Post-16 Education Act 2022 in England, which enforces that access. I think it's an interesting Act. It's interesting to see one thing where the UK Government is intervening—the Conservative UK Government intervening—where the Welsh Labour Government hasn't; that's an interesting kind of turnaround of events. But I think we would like to see how that runs through, because, if you read the report, there are also recommendations for opportunities to do it without legislation. For example, I suggest there is a quid pro quo, whereby schools could use FE resources to gain access to college databases of employers, easing staff workload and opening up further opportunities to their learners. And colleges, reciprocally, could get access to learners much earlier in their school career. Perhaps you could even—and the Minister and I discussed this—have service level agreements between schools and colleges as to how you could achieve that. I think that's quite important.
And there were some reservations also about the commission itself. One principal told us that they're still trying to understand what the dotted line through to Welsh Government from CTER is. And another said:
'I think there's going to be a reality for the Commission, which is going to have to manage a budget. So, I think some of...these issues are going to be driven simply by the fact that money is going to be scarce. And I think that will drive some decision making.’
So, to suggest that CTER is going to solve all these fragmentation problems I think is unrealistic. You need the sector to be working together better than it is now. And that isn't something that CTER can solve on its own. There's got to be willingness from the sector to do it, and I've given really good examples in the report of where it's happening, where it can be scaled up—the NPTC group of colleges, for example, are doing superb work. I've mentioned Coleg Llandrillo Menai, and I've also mentioned a school—Mr Daniel Owen's School in Llanidloes—Llanidloes High School—which is doing a great job.
I'm going to move on. I'm not going to have time to go on to work experience, so I'm going to move on to degree apprenticeships, which is recommendations 6 and 7. We want to see consistency and choice throughout degree apprenticeships, and I think Universities Wales themselves have said that that is something that they need to see—they need to see vertical integration through from levels 3, 4 and 5 into level 6, and, hopefully, one day, level 7, because, at the moment, we're only offering level 6 apprenticeships. I'd like to think that there's an opportunity to build apprenticeships bigger, and Dr Francis Cowe, from the University of South Wales, who's got a great strategic partnership with colleges, said there's sectoral demand for the development of leadership, management, construction project management, digital engineering and rail engineering, which is why I was banging the desk when the Minister said that those construction engineering and rail engineering degree apprenticeships are starting from September 2024, or January 2024, and will be under way, so even sooner than I thought. That wasn't the case when I began the report. So, when we met the guys at the Transport for Wales training centre back in December last year, they were pushing for it and it wasn't happening. So, thank you to the Minister—and also, I should mention, the Minister for Economy as well, because it's in his portfolio—for taking that action. It is really welcome.
And I do want to mention the issue that Heledd Fychan mentioned, which was the funding of degree apprenticeships. I'm not advocating that we suddenly start charging degree apprenticeships student fees. Let's be clear—I'm not talking about lower level apprenticeships and ordinary level apprenticeships; I'm talking about degree apprenticeships, looking at what would happen if we took that option. We must have the intellectual curiosity to understand the consequences of not doing it. What is the opportunity cost of not putting some fee towards the student, employer and Government? What is the cost of not doing that? We must understand it. So, I'm happy to vote with Plaid Cymru's amendment today on a matter of principle, although I don't really agree that all education should be free, because it can't be free, because somebody’s got to pay teachers and resources and everything else. I will vote with the amendment, but I would say we should still have some intellectual curiosity about this. It is really important, and I think that is limiting by Plaid Cymru, by suggesting that we shouldn't even consider the issues involved there.
And finally, I want to come back, in my last point, to something close to heart. Engage to Change, I've said, are in the gallery. They have job coaching, getting people with autism and other additional learning needs into work in Cardiff University. I've met those people, and they are doing an amazing job. The trouble is that they're living hand to mouth, and I want to see those guys being funded fully, because what they do is amazing. Jayne Bryant has been to visit them as Chair of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee. She's seen it. She's doing a bit of work on it now. You might want to engage with her as well; I'm sure you are. And I think that that is a really key way forward for people with learning disabilities.
Finally, I've got to say thank yous, Dirprwy Lywydd. I've got to say thank you to my staff, to Laura Green and Alex Still, but also to officials in Welsh Government who gave me advice, and also to the First Minister, the Minister for Economy, but, most importantly, the education Minister, for allowing me to do this work in the first place.

As the author, I gave you a lot of flexibility there. Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I welcome very much the important work undertaken by the Member for Caerphilly in producing this report for the Government, and I'm speaking today in my capacity as the Chair of the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee, and Members will know that skills to boost the Welsh economy are a vital element of our committee's remit. And I can say that the Member for Caerphilly has been an extremely knowledgeable and enthusiastic scrutineer of this subject in our committee sessions.
Now, this report offers some very important recommendations, and I hope the Welsh Government responds positively to them and, from what I've heard from the Minister so far today, that is certainly the case. At its core, the report makes it clear that there is still a need to ensure that children and young people are supported in their practical experiences and understanding of the world of work. We know that we need to build better links with the world of work, and we need to ensure that the experiences that children and young people have are meaningful and offer real value. The report shows there are some pockets of good practice in schools, but the feedback from the CBI is that engagement between schools and the business sector is not always positive, and that is very worrying. In addition, the Federation of Small Businesses also say that there needs be more effort by education providers to engage with Welsh SMEs and, indeed, microbusinesses, and that’s really one of the main points that I want to reiterate this afternoon. Businesses must have a seat at the table to ensure that we match up the skills needs of employers with the pool of young talent we have here in Wales.

Hefin David AC: Will you take an intervention on that point?

Paul Davies AC: Yes, I'm more than happy to.

Hefin David AC: Just very quickly; it's something I didn't have time to say in my speech. The Federation of Small Businesses also recognised that they face different challenges to the larger CBI-representated businesses, and a good example in the report is Coleg Llandrillo Menai, who are really taking advantage of links with small businesses.

Paul Davies AC: Yes, absolutely, and I very much agree with that. Businesses and education providers can learn so much more from each other about how to engage young people, and the Welsh Government has an important role, I think, in developing stronger links between the two. Students must get a full picture of the opportunities available to them, and schools and colleges must be supported to maximise those opportunities for real-life experience of employment, and building relationships between providers, schools and businesses is absolutely essential.
The report tells us that, right now, schools predominantly rely upon the time and initiative of teaching staff to identify and form relationships with professionals and employers in order to provide learners with significant practical experiences, but this has to change.
Now, recommendation 3 of the report is right to call on the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research to work with academic and vocational education providers in order to reduce the fragmentation of the sector. It's that fragmentation that needs to be addressed as a priority.
Now, the report also focuses on enhancing choice, variety and consistency in higher and degree apprenticeships, and better integration between the different level of apprenticeships, and I know this is an issue close to the Member for Caerphilly's heart. The report makes it clear that there needs to be consistency and continuity in apprenticeship programmes, further expansion of degree apprenticeships, and opportunities for all.And like Hefin David, I was particularly pleased when the Minister for Economy told the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee, at our last meeting, about the Welsh Government's plans to widen the degree apprenticeship offer in Wales to include pathways in construction, digital and, indeed, rail, and I believe this is a positive step forward. But I'd like to see degree apprenticeships further expanded to other pathways, such as renewable energy, where we know there will be a need for skilled workers in that sector in the future.
The report also recognises that there needs to be a much bigger effort on all sides to narrow the gender gap when it comes to degree apprenticeships. The Welsh Government's own evaluation of its degree apprenticeships programme to date shows only 14 per cent of current degree apprentices are female. This is simply not good enough, and it's right that this report focuses on addressing gender imbalance, as well as opportunities for disabled learners and others with protected characteristics. The Welsh Government has a duty to ensure that there is support for those transitional learners with additional learning needs, and I believe that the Welsh Government needs to do some more work to understand the impact of job coaches and the role they play in helping navigate complex personal barriers in order to help people apply for and get a job. Therefore, perhaps the Minister will take the opportunity to tell us a bit more about the work the Welsh Government may do in this area going forward, when he responds to this debate.
In closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, we know that there is some fragmentation in this area, and the Welsh Government must prioritise strengthening relationships between education providers, businesses and learners. We have an opportunity, with the new curriculum, to get this right, and now is the time to make some significant changes. There is an important role here for the new Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, and for Careers Wales, to take note of these important recommendations, and I can assure the Senedd that the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee will monitor the progress that is made very, very closely indeed. Thank you.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I'd also like to place on record my appreciation for the work of my colleague Dr Hefin David in producing his report to the Welsh Government, 'Transitions to Employment'. His experience and interest in this arena is well known, and I do thank him for his contribution, as a former lecturer and teacher myself.
Deputy Llywydd, I'd like to focus my contribution substantially on the area of developing vocational and apprenticeship pathways, and I also welcome the Minister's announcement today around digital, engineering and STEM pathways. So, to quote:
'This report has identified the need for consistency and continuity in vocational educational pathways.'
I value greatly that we strive across Wales to ensure equality of access for all to university, and this is right. But, equally, we have a society, seemingly, that has valued and prioritised academic qualifications without giving equivalent status to vocational qualifications, qualifications and roles that we all, as a society, hugely need sectorally to prosper. Too many young people have found vocational education pathways just difficult to navigate and have felt less valued across our society. And I do believe this has often been reflected in pay and morale and workforce capacity.
The report notes that the University and College Union Cymru envisages
'a social model of education in which provision wraps around the rhythm of a learners’ life as it is actually lived.'
As a former adult learner myself, with four young children at the time, this really resonated with me, as did the need for structural resources, however, to enable this, such as better flexible study and effective child and caring support mechanisms. So, I would like to know the Welsh Government's assessment also of the known complications created by the UK Government's apprenticeship levy. But it is good to see the creation of a new Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, with the development of Wales action research projects to build capacity and connections across Wales and beyond. Yes, there is much work to be done.
So, to close, I do welcome both the education Minister's statement on post-16 professional development frameworks today, and Hefin's report—strong indicators that we in Wales will tackle the systemic and, often, cultural issues, and that we in Wales will also encourage and nurture and grow the education ecology needed for an international Wales of the twenty-first century. Diolch.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I welcome the Minister for education commissioning this piece of work and congratulate my friend Hefin David on the work he has done on this report? It's pretty clear—. Dr Hefin David—you're right—my friend Alun Davies reminds me. His passion for learning and improving those outcomes that learning brings, and the importance of building the relationships between the world of work and education, clearly shines through in his contribution today, but also in his report entirely. And I feel quite proud, actually, to stand up here and speak in this debate. We've heard from the Minister, we've heard from economy spokespeople and education spokespeople today, but I'm speaking as someone who's actually served an apprenticeship and then went on to gain his degree with the backing of my employer, in the engineering field. And it's no surprise that I'll focus on those opportunities in front of us amongst those sectors.

Jack Sargeant AC: And it's not just for those reasons I'm going to focus there; it's because, also, there is a race in the world—a race to lead on the next generation of green, carbon-neutral technologies. Governments across the globe are throwing millions into this, considerable sums at this, but, sadly, not unsurprisingly, that's not happening in Westminster. But investment is not enough. We do need school leavers and those in school, and others, to be able to train. And to do this, we need to encourage them and make sure that they recognise the importance of STEM subjects. This comes down to learners having a picture of the path they might wish to take or need to take, and what steps they need to be able to get there. Recommendation 2 in Hefin's report covers this succinctly. It is no use people wanting to do a higher engineering or a degree apprenticeship and not having the STEM subjects before that to be able to get them there.
Recommendation 5 talks about the experience of the world of work, and it's made me reflect on my own journey once again. One of my personal inspirations in the field of engineering was taking part in the F1 in Schools programme; that opened a window of what might have been possible. I machined the wheels that went on to the little F1 car, which was shot down a track later on, at the local firm where I then went on to serve my apprenticeship, where I then got the backing to go on and do my degree. And also, at the same time, as part of a pilot in school in my GCSEs, I took part in a, if you like, pre-apprenticeship programme at Deeside College, as it was called then. That vocational qualification gave me the ability to go on and do the things that I wished to do. And that's what I want to see from the next generation of learners—to see that advanced engineering is for them.
I'm acutely aware that the knowledge of these opportunities is not what it should be in our schools, nor in our parents and guardians of these young learners. Young learners are often impressionable—they can be put off or discouraged by well-meaning but wrong comments from those advising them, whether this is formally or informally. That's why we need to put considerably more effort into encouraging and getting work experience placements right. They need to be equal in part, driven by the interest and attainment level of the young person, but also pitched to inspire. And in Deeside, we're very fortunate; we have on our doorstep Airbus, Tata Steel, Toyota, Atlas Copco, the advanced manufacturing research centre—a whole range of engineering companies on our doorstep. So that must mean that local people are more aware that that is available to them. However, even in Deeside, there is still much more we can do if we are going to maintain and grow the skill set required to take on the new challenge of the green industrial revolution and a green new deal, and win those challenges.
Presiding Officer, I fully support Dr David's recommendations on higher apprenticeships, and, in particular, degree apprenticeships. And he's right—there is a need for level 7 apprenticeship programmes. Before I entered the Senedd, back in February 2018, I was studying a masters of business administration in industrial management, something I would have loved to have carried on if I chose to go down that path rather than coming here. [Interruption.] Yes. [Laughter.] I fully encourage people to do that, and the Government to do that.
I will end on two points, Presiding Officer—I know time's pressed. I want to recognise just how important it is, for Hefin, in particular, to open the opportunities for learners with additional learning needs. I know we have colleagues from Cardiff here with us today. And like him, and others, I would like to see the provision of specialist jobs coaches extended. Once again, Presiding Officer, I'd like to thank Hefin for this report. I commend this report to the Senedd, because I think that, within the document in front of us, which we've all received and we all should have read, we have a blueprint for addressing a number of the problems we face. We have the blueprint; now we need the Welsh Government to take action and deliver on it. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for Education and Welsh Language to reply to the debate.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I think we will all agree that this has been a really rich debate. I think we've heard passion in relation to this from all sides of the Chamber. We've had the personal experiences of Members like Rhianon Passmore and Jack Sargeant. You have my commitment and the commitment of the Government to this, and we've got the evidence in Hefin's report that will help us navigate our response to this. We've heard from a number of Members how important it is to make sure that the Curriculum for Wales is an opportunity to bring schools and the world of employment and the world of business together at primary through to secondary, and I think at the heart of that is getting a better relationship across the system between schools and colleagues—where are the obstacles, what can we do to support a different relationship.
The report, as Hefin mentioned in his contribution—. He talked about a quid pro quo, and I think that's a good way of looking at it. But there are good examples, which he refers to, like Maesteg comprehensive and NPTC Group of Colleges in the world of construction. Paul Davies and I were at an event recently where the floating offshore wind sector was working with schools in his constituency. So, there are good examples at work, and the task is to make sure that that is a more broadly spread experience.
Laura Anne Jones, Rhianon Passmore, Jack Sargeant and others talked about the importance that parity of esteem, and I think one Member spoke of the glue that's needed to bring the qualifications together. I've had an early discussion with Sharron Lusher before the report is formally provided, and I think Members will be pleased with the level of ambition in that report as well dealing with this issue. I do recognise the point that we can't expect the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research to be the solution to every single ill. It's absolutely a task for all parts of the sector, and industry and employers more broadly, to find innovative ways of working together in the way that the report suggests.
I wanted to touch particularly on a number of points that were made. In relation to the area of work experience that the report deals with very extensively and very creatively, Members will, of course, have noted our recent announcements in relation to additional funding for work experience for learners who otherwise are finding it difficult to engage with their studies, and there is more that can be done in that space.
On the point of degree apprenticeships that a number of Members have spoken about, I welcome the response to the announcement in relation to the expansion of degree apprenticeships. We're also looking at other ways of expanding this area. We're looking at our successful Seren academy, which is currently focused on supporting our brightest learners to get into the best universities, but we are asking it as well to look at how vocational routes can be promoted to our brightest learners so that they can look at degree apprenticeships. So, there's a lot of innovative work happening in this area.
On the important point in relation to additional learning needs, I just want to recognise the strength of commitment across the Chamber in relation to this. I was, I think, asked specifically by Paul Davies what we have in mind in this area. Members will possibly recall that we've had a supported employment job coach pilot, which has been referred to as well in the debate today. That's been about understanding how we can provide resources to further develop the awareness of and confidence in those with those additional learning needs, how to form a better understanding of the needs of learners with additional learning needs in this space, and how we can then support young people to get the outcomes that they want. We've recently published the evaluation of that pilot—it's on the Welsh Government's website as of May—and we're now looking at what more we can do based on what we've learnt during that pilot. I absolutely recognise it's an important area.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, if I may, a number of Members—Heledd Fychan and others—spoke about the importance of making sure that opportunities are available, of course, through the medium of Welsh. The significant investment that is being made available to the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol through the co-operation agreement will, I think, make a big difference in the level of provision through the Welsh medium in post 16, but specifically in the context of apprenticeships, as well as the point that is made in the report that we have other projects—the Prentis-iaith initiative and others that will extend provision in this area. The coleg Cymraeg is itself already extending provision in the health and social care areas and others.
I think we've all heard a debate today that has really helped make sure this area of work remains a priority and retains the focus of the Senedd. It's one of those, I think, if I may say, rare debates where there's been a shared set of values expressed in all parts of the Chamber, coming from different perspectives. I just once again want to thank Members for that, but also in particular to thank Hefin David for the work of preparing this important report. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to voting time.

11. Voting Time

The first vote this afternoon is on item 7, the Animal By-Products, Pet Passport and Animal Health (Fees) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, nine abstentions and 15 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 7. The Animal By-Products, Pet Passport and Animal Health (Fees) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023: For: 27, Against: 15, Abstain: 9
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on item 8, the LCM on the Procurement Bill. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 41, no abstentions, 10 against, therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 8. LCM on the Procurement Bill: For: 41, Against: 10, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

We next vote on item 9. I call for a vote on the motion on the first supplementary budget 2023-24, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 36, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 9. Debate: The First Supplementary Budget 2023-24: For: 36, Against: 15, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

We will now move to a vote on item 10.First, I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. In favour 36, there were 15 abstentions, and none against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Item 10. Debate: Education’s Links with Employers. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 36, Against: 0, Abstain: 15
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM8309 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the report from Hefin David MS ‘Transitions to Employment: A Report for the Welsh Government’.
2. Recognises the role of education in delivering the skills and training that learners in Wales need to address the demands of the Welsh economy.
3. Believes that the financial burden for degree apprenticeships should not fall on the individual and that all education should be free.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 36, 15 abstentions and none against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 10. Debate: Education’s Links with Employers. Motion (as amended): For: 36, Against: 0, Abstain: 15
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting for today and it also concludes our business for the afternoon.

The meeting ended at 18:31.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Ken Skates: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the value of international cultural events to Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The importance we attach to cultural events like the Llangollen International Music Eisteddfod taking place this week in your constituency is reflected in our new events strategy, which recognises how events can contribute to all the seven national well-being goals. With any events we fund, we set targets for both their economic and social impact.

Hefin David: Will the First Minister provide an update on Welsh Government plans to reform property and estate management charges paid by residents of private housing estates?

Mark Drakeford: We continue to press the UK Government to honour its commitment to extend to freeholders the rights to challenge reasonableness and apply for a new manager to take over the administration of charges. We expect these measures to be included in the upcoming Bill to reform leasehold, due this autumn.

Altaf Hussain: What action is the Government taking to improve access to primary care in South Wales West?

Mark Drakeford: Delivering better access to doctors, nurses, dentists and other health professionals is a programme for government commitment. Reform is ongoing across all contracted primary care services, and increasing access is central to transforming services.